Elite 50 (SE50P) locked up, starter???

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

Quoth NightCruiser:

Pounded all over with a rubber (Emphasis added.) mallet and it doesn't seem to move at all.

Rubber Schmubber. Real STEEL, Dawg! Just use a gentle hand...

Did you slide that engine out from under the scooter lak whut Ah dun tol' ya? Sure makes life easier, and chances are you're going to want to examine other stuff carefully. That's hard to do hunched over.

[nightcruiser]

Greetings:

Quoth NightCruiser:

Pounded all over with a rubber (Emphasis added.) mallet and it doesn't seem to move at all.

Rubber Schmubber. Real STEEL, Dawg! Just use a gentle hand...

Did you slide that engine out from under the scooter lak whut Ah dun tol' ya? Sure makes life easier, and chances are you're going to want to examine other stuff carefully. That's hard to do hunched over.

I did read your suggestion, but I kinda think pulling the motor off is gonna be a bit more than I bargained for? I'm just thinking about the cables and wires and such that need to come undone before I can pull the whole motor out, seems like a much bigger job than pulling the crank case cover and inspecting the starting mechanism(s). Maybe pulling the motor is easier than I am envisioning? Is there a guide on the net anywhere that shows how to rip the motor off of one of these things?
I was using a rubber mallet because I didn't want to beat on this case with something solid like a real hammer, and most of the times a couple good raps with a rubber mallet will make stuff like this start to come apart. I will have to pull the wheel and pound it out through the access holes from behind with a real hammer I guess....
I am not completely apposed to pulling the motor and getting a better look at the whole thing, I am just a bit reluctant to do that because I am trying to clean the garage up a bit, not rip something apart and have it sprawled all over for god knows how long. Pulling the case cover isn't such a big deal, the bike cane still be rolled into a corner etc, once that back end is off there are gonna be parts everywhere I fear......

[swimmingfree]

deep breath..
ok its not hard to take the motor off all the wires have diffident colors and some have strip about 2 bouts 2 cable 8 wires.. im going to tell you something you have just started on this you will cave to clean the carb and maybe the gas tank .. but we will be here for you but if you going to take it out to the trash you will miss the best part of these things the ride two hour for the price of a hafe gallon of gas .. but before you trash it let us not we will get ride of it for you
swimmingfree

[nightcruiser]

deep breath..
ok its not hard to take the motor off all the wires have diffident colors and some have strip about 2 bouts 2 cable 8 wires.. im going to tell you something you have just started on this you will cave to clean the carb and maybe the gas tank .. but we will be here for you but if you going to take it out to the trash you will miss the best part of these things the ride two hour for the price of a hafe gallon of gas .. but before you trash it let us not we will get ride of it for you
swimmingfree

I dont think I have the ambition to pull the motor right now unless I find a guide that tells me exactly what I am up against, and after reading it I say to myself, "Hey, that's not too bad". To puzzle through it and start pulling off a motor from a bike I have no experience with seems a bit more than I bargained for right now. That could change rapidly as I famaliarize myself with it, or if I find a good tear down guide online to help me, I'd prefer to not go at it cold.

I get about 125MPG on my motorized mountain bike and love the * out of that, so the fuel economy isn't a huge motivator. Even if I get this thing fixed I will have to regester and get plates etc before I can really ride it, with the motorized bike I don't have to bother with any of that red tape stuff. So I have my ride all sorted out (with the motorized bike) and I am just toying with this thing cause I have it basically, it truely was near curb bound recently.

I'm not even sure that I would go through and register the skooter myself if I get it running, what all do I need to be legal in Illinois? Inspection, Plates, Insurance, Helmet, Motorcycle license? The nice thing about my motorized bike is in Illinois it's pretty much looked upon and governed by the laws that apply to bicycles rather than scooters or motorcycles...

My bro-in-law has a couple mini-bikes and quads but none of them are steet legal, so he has to sneak rides or go to a place where it is legal to ride, pain in the * really, the laws. Anyhow, I thought maybe I would give this scooter to him if I can get it fixed up, cause he would be more likely to spend the $$ to plate it etc and would probably actually ride since it's street legal and all. I was reluctant to even give it to him, cause I didnt want to give him a money pit, so I decided to take a look at it and try to see how bad off it really is before I do anything.

I really do appreciate you guys help and encouragement, and you probably will see me posting here quite a bit about what happens with this bike. In the end you will probably be right, the bike will most likely get strpped down in all sorts of ways. Right now I am just dipping my toe a bit and hoping I can get this starter(s) problem worked out to encourage me to move forward. You have to keep in mind that I have no idea what this bike went through before I ended up with it (in this dead condition). I was encouraged to see oil in the tank, but that could have gotten there after the kid burned it up too! (He said, "I rode the * out of it in College", that's all I know about it!) So I have no idea if the damage starts or stops with the starting problem, or how extensive or expensive the repair will end up to be before it runs... So, baby steps on this one... lol
Thanks again

[Mystic]

I have faith in you man you can try a long flathead or even a long rod of some kind, stick it through the rim to peck on the little tabs on the back of the side cover to at least free it a bit so you can get something in there to pry it off. once you get a gap between the crancase and the cover stick a flathead or putty knife in there and gently twist to begin seperating the cover from the engine. BTW 2 bolts hold the engine on, once you figure it out it is a breeze to take the entire engine off, but I agree with you, the side cover is the priority you will have plenty of time to figure the rest out once you see if your efforts thus far bear fruit:D

[nightcruiser]

I'm glad to report I had success getting the left crankcase cover removed. I finally found the two little areas where the cover has a tab that sticks out a bit which can be used to pound it loose.

Inside things really didn't look that bad. The electric starter gear mechanism (forgive me for not having proper technical names for these parts) seems to be in good shape, the gear that spins out was retracted and spins out like it should, the whole thing came right out easily after the case was off. (hopefully that was supposed to happen!)

I can see the half moon gear on the kickstart has the second tooth eaten up, it looks like that is the source for the kickstart lockup.

I am guessing that the electric starter quit working and the kid kick started it until he managed to jam this gear and then parked it (in what later turned out to be MY garage!). The reason I assumed the scooter was trashed is because he so willingly gave up the title just to be rid of it, his loss, my gain I guess! I had the spark plug out and turned over the motor by hand and everything seems to be working properly. When the plug is in there seems to be lots of compression which is encouraging. I don't know if anything inside the motor can cause an intermittent lockup, or seize up under compression? I am crossing my fingers that the problem(s) are the two failed starting mechanisms and not the motor.

At this point I think there is a pretty good chance I can get this thing running and am willing to dig in a little further....

When I had a good car battery attached with bright tail lights shining, if I hit the start button I heard a click and the tail light would dim quite a bit. This seems to indicate that the starter is drawing current but not turning (I didn't hear any sort of mechanical rotation). I am hoping I can pull the starter off and apart and maybe free up whatever is jamming it and get it working again. If I get the electric start working I can evaluate the bike further, I can get a new kick start half moon gear whenever to fix that issue. (or figure out how to rig it not to return to this top tooth?). I guess I need a new gasket for this left crankcase cover since this one ripped in a few spots during separation, any guidance on that would be appreciated.

I guess I am finally interested enough, or hopeful enough, to pull off this motor so I can work on it more easily. I need to get this starter off first, seems that would be much easier if the motor was loose. If you can offer me any guidance on removing the motor that would be awesome, and/or guidance on removing the electric starter, because that is my real starting point. If I can get that electric starter to spin I'm good to go, or at least to get going on the project....
Thanks again for your interest and advice

[evilone]

Looks like you're missing the "castle" gear or is it just not pictured? The teeth are supposed to look like they do, they are not stripped.

[nightcruiser]

Looks like you're missing the "castle" gear or is it just not pictured? The teeth are supposed to look like they do, they are not stripped.

I have the castle gear, it was in place but I pulled it out to look at the teeth on the gear. It appeared to me that the tooth was stripped but funny enough I was looking at the manual and the gear in their picture looked the same, so thank you for commenting and putting me on track. The castle gear looks like it is in good condition as well.
If that ground tooth is proper as pictured then I guess I am back to square 1 as to why the kick starter is jamming, in addition to why the electric starter isnt turning... Open to suggestions...

[Mystic]

clean the grooves on the castle and the half moon and push on the shaft from the outside to see if the snapring is worn allowing the shaft to push in, it shouldnt push in easily or at all if the snapring is good and tight. when you put the castle back in make sure the little washer is under it and you might even put a pea sized bit of grease there then stick the gear in. put the kickstart lever back on so you can use it to turn the half moon enough to insert the castle so that when you let go of the lever the half moon engages the castle and stops where it looks like a tooth is missing that is why that spot is there to keep it from spinning to0 far around. good job so far. I would get the kickstart working so you can see if it will crank, you can always work on the electric start later that is just me though. also you really dont need a gasket between the crankcase and the cover but you can make one yourself. it is a pain to fool with if you have to take the cover off all the time i finally threw the gasket I made away

[nightcruiser]

Well, I've been studying the manual and decided I might as well pull off the motor and clean it etc, since I've got a good chance it might run I might as well dig in...
I got it all apart except the motor mount bolt. When I turn it the rear end rotates and I wasn't able to bust it, but I only had a tiny wrench. I soaked everything in WD40 and got myself a bigger socket driver and I am gonna try to bust it loose later. If there is a trick to busting this engine mounting bolt please fill me in...
In the process couple things popped up. The air filter foam fell apart when I touched it, kinda glad, cause I dont want it sucked into the carb! The small tube on the carb (vac?) broke, the smaller of the two that come from the gas tank. I am gonna need to replace these two items if I get the scooter rolling, advice on what to use is appreciated.
Also, when I pulled the gas line I didnt have any gas come out, though there is some gas in the tank? I didnt see a shut off valve for the gas so I am wondering what might be going on here?

[wentwest]

I'll chime in here because I can see you are still hesitating about jumping into this thing all the way. What I can tell you is, "DO IT." I started messing with Honda scooters about 6 years ago and it's just been fun the whole time. They are built very logically, by people that really seemed to enjoy the engineering. If you download the manual it will give step by step instructions to remove the engine, and of course you can take lots of pictures as you go. I save up yogurt and cottage cheese cups, with the lids, and put the removed pieces in them, section by section.

A little care, a lot of cleaning with carb cleaner, brake cleaner and fine steel wool, lubricating things that no one ever lubricated in 25 years, and take your time putting it back together. Everything is small and it does not have to take up your whole garage. Removing the engine is easier than you think and makes working on the bits and pieces so much better on your back. You can just pick the engine up and put it on the workbench yourself.

These are very well designed machines, but they were always cheap and they were generally treated like crap by kids and adults who never spent a nickel on maintenance. Most of them are basically okay, with some minor issue that no one was willing to pay to repair. If you take things apart, clean them, try to understand how they work, and put them back together, I'd be willing to bet it will run just fine. I'm now finishing rebuilding the engine on an 85 Honda Gyro that sat outside in the rain in the woods of California for 15 years. The piston was rusted solid in the cylinder and every opening was stuffed with dirt, leaves and bugs. I've cleaned out everything I can, and pounded the piston down out of the cylinder with a sledge and a wooden closet pole, sanded the inside of the cylinder and the piston and replaced the rings, redone the carb, etc., and it starts and it runs. The most complicated tool I used was a Dremel and a torque wrench.

So, just do it. It will work well in a short time.

[nightcruiser]

Yah, mark me as down, I got the motor on the bench now and have been cleaning off the first couple layers of crud. I pulled the starter and it is sized up big time, there seems to be some debre melted under one brush and the plastic area around the brushes looks like its melting a bit, not sure if it would be salvageable. I am wondering if there is a good replacement for this starter available? The construction of this starter moter seems a bit cheaper internally than I expected.
I've been turning over the motor with the big gear, it turns very easily, even with the plug in it is turning very easily which is getting me kinda nirvous. I expected compression.... I hear the carb burp when I rotate and a little gurgle from the belly on the other end of the stroke, but not a whole lot of resistance to me turnging it over by hand. Is this normal?

[dun rite]

Also, when I pulled the gas line I didnt have any gas come out, though there is some gas in the tank?

fuel shouldn't flow out off fuel line until the engine is spinning. Fuel flow is controlled by vacuum actuated petcock on bottom of tank.

I've been turning over the motor with the big gear, it turns very easily, even with the plug in it is turning very easily which is getting me kinda nirvous. I expected compression.... I hear the carb burp when I rotate and a little gurgle from the belly on the other end of the stroke, but not a whole lot of resistance to me turnging it over by hand. Is this normal?

The only way to know for sure is to do a compression test, otherwise you're guessing.

http://hondaspree.net/wiki/index.php5?t ... sion_Check

[nightcruiser]

Also, when I pulled the gas line I didnt have any gas come out, though there is some gas in the tank?

fuel shouldn't flow out off fuel line until the engine is spinning. Fuel flow is controlled by vacuum actuated petcock on bottom of tank.

I've been turning over the motor with the big gear, it turns very easily, even with the plug in it is turning very easily which is getting me kinda nirvous. I expected compression.... I hear the carb burp when I rotate and a little gurgle from the belly on the other end of the stroke, but not a whole lot of resistance to me turnging it over by hand. Is this normal?

The only way to know for sure is to do a compression test, otherwise you're guessing.

http://hondaspree.net/wiki/index.php5?t ... sion_Check

OK, I was wondering what that can was and why it had what looked like a vacume line on it as well as the fuel line. So I will have to crank over the motor to get the 10 year old fuel out of the tank???
I dont have a compression tester but could get a cheap one I guess, but since the starter is dead I wont be able to crank the motor for the 30-60 seconds like it suggests in the instructions.

All roads seem to lead back to the starter I guess. I need to find me one that works... Are there any alternate parts for the starter on an '87 Elite 50 (SE50P)???

And I will be looking for a good deal on a battery too I guess...

Also, I have a new NGK BP6HS plug here from my other bike, the number is very similar to the one listed for this SE50P, the only difference I can see in the spec is one is a resistor plug and the other isnt, and the one I have comes with a removable cap and the other doesnt come with a cap. I am wondering if this plug would work for my Elite 50?

[dun rite]

get the 10 year old fuel out of the tank???

you can just remove the tank and tip it upside down to remove the old fuel. rinse it out put it back.

You can use the kick start to do the compression test. just kick until the comp. gauge quits moving. theres a one way valve on the gauge. then a push button to release the pressure when done. Here you can rent them from parts houses. But there not that expensive, and really a good tool to have on hand.