85 Spree Won't Start

[BigPapa]

Hi all, I've read many of the posts on this site and everyone seems so helpful. Hoping you all can help me out as well. Just bought an 85 Spree that "didn't run". I found that the fuel line was disconnected. I replaced the fuel and vent lines from the fuel pump. Replaced the spark plug and air filter. It turns over nicely but won't start. I tried starting fluid and fuel down the spark plug hole but no luck. A buddy came over with a spark plug tester and verified it was getting spark. I've purchased used ignition coil and CDI off eBay and am waiting for them to arrive. Any tips on what else I should try while I wait on the delivery of my parts? Thanks in advance for any input/advise!!!

[swimmingfree]

starting fluid is a no no it can strip the oil for the motor and that cood f it up ...
do a compression test on it .... you need about 90 psi to run it... auto zone rent then out... and get some carb cleaner as well the spray kind... the dollar store sell it up here...
swimmingfree

[BigPapa]

Thanks for the reply. Just got back from Auto Zone. Only registered 10 psi. Just to be sure the gauge was working properly, I tested my lawnmower and got 60 psi. Is my engine toast? Thanks.

[swimmingfree]

mite bee i wood pull the top end and see if the rings are stuck to the piston as well as looking at the jug for deep groves....
A buddy came over with a spark plug tester and verified it was getting spark. I've purchased used ignition coil and CDI off eBay why if you have spark what is the other stuff for????
if the piston and rings are bad but the jug is good you can get a new piston and rings off ebay if its all bad then we will deal with that ether way if you want you can get it running....
swimmingfree

[BigPapa]

Thanks so much! My brother in law has an 86 Spree that runs fine. I put my ignition coil on his machine and it didn't start so I ordered a used one off eBay. The CDI on 85s and 86s were different part numbers so I could not swap parts to see if mine was bad so I went ahead and bought a used one as well. Think you're right, pull the top and look at the rings. Guess I'll be watching UTube tomorrow. Thanks again, my kids are really looking forward to getting this running.

[swimmingfree]

heres a new top end for your spree http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-NQ50-SPRE ... 3384decd59
and heres a new piston for it http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-Spree-NQ5 ... 3384de907d
hope this helps and chopchop*123 is a member of this form if he has time ....
swimmingfree

[Johnniespeed]

10 PSI is definitely a problem . My Gyro had bad compression similar to that, but would start if I squirted much oil into the plug hole, of course it didn't have any power or would not idle. I removed a perfect brand new piston, bored the worn out cylinder oversize, installed oversize piston and runs perfectly now. It seems the previous owner put a brand new piston into a worn out cylinder, when that didn't work he just sold it, the guy who bought it gave the Gyro to me, when he couldn't get it to run either.
Keep up posted on what you find and your progress.

[BigPapa]

I went ahead and ordered a new top end off eBay from the link you sent me - thanks. Just pulled the old one off and found scoring on the piston and cylinder. One of the two c-rings on the pin that holds the connecting rod inside the cylinder was missing. Looks like it worked out and got between the piston and cylinder wall. Also found one side of the reed valve not working properly. Here's my question - we found about 5-6 ounces of a light weight oil (not as thick as motor oil) in the bottom of the engine - it was deep enough to cover the crack shaft. In reading the service manual, I don't see any mention of an oil down there. Any idea what it is and how it got there? Thanks in advance!!!!

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

You may find yourself with a spare coil. You do need new reeds and it sounds like that top end was overdue for replacement. Take special care with those C-clips - DON'T over-bend on installation. Usually they don't "work loose". They were installed incorrectly. Be absolutely sure about this.

Two-strokes survive on a Total-Loss oiling system. Whether introduced via the automatic pump or pre-mixed into the fuel, it forms droplets that scatter on the relatively cool walls of the crankcase and puddles in the bottom. Those shiny-smooth flywheels then fling it up randomly to coat the bottom of the cylinder, where the piston so slathered carries it along in the bore. The excess is collected in those dimples over the main bearings where it trickles down to lube those roller balls. Whatever's left over blows out the muffler to produce that delicious two-smoke smell and destroy the Ozone layer. Totally worth it.

SO, some oil in the crankcase is essential to survival. The story on a Spree scooter that's been asleep for a year, or two, or 10 is that the pumps tend not to be completely oil-tight. The seals allow a drop a week to ooze out and run into the crankcase, uninvited. Those weeks sometimes add up to so much oil that fuel can't transfer, or it's so oily that it won't ignite despite good compression and spark - it can bridge the spark plug. In extreme cases, the oil can Hydro-Lock the engine so it won't even turn over.

Since you have it apart, turn it upside down - preferably not over BigMama's priceless Persian rug - and let it drain out that excess. With functional reeds, A COMPLETE AND INTACT AIR BOX and another new spark plug and a little luck, it should fire if the fuel's combustible. If not, dig into the carb and see why.

[BigPapa]

I was reading some posts earlier today and read about hydro-locking and was thinking the same thing as you. New reeds were ordered yesterday anticipating them to be bad. I used rags and paper towels to remove all of the oil in the bottom. Strange that it wasn't blue like two cycle oil - it was clear and very thin, like machine oil. Speaking of fluids, that brings up another question if you don't mind. I don't have an owner's manual - just the online service manual. I know you have the main 2 cycle oil tank, and I've check the final drive level near the back tire. Level is a bit low and the manual says to add 10W-40. Is there another fluid reservoir such as transmission that I need to check level or change while everything is torn apart? Page 1-3 of the manual says the transmission oil capacity is 90cc. Where is that and how do I check it? Then to confuse me more (I'm not really this dumb, just a newbie to mopeds), the maintenance schedule on page 3-3 refers to final reduction oil (10W-40 right?) and the final drive oil. Are they the same or different. As always thanks for your advice - it has been invaluable.

[Johnniespeed]

Final drive oil, final reduction oil, transmission gear lube would all be referring to the same thing on a Spree. It is important to not let that fluid level to become low, since it doesn't hold very much anyway.
It is quite easy to tip the scooter upside down with the help of a friend to empty the oil from the crankcase area. But I just use an air nozzle and catch the oil spray with a rag, as a lazy shortcut.
Look closely at the "new" cylinder base gasket as some that are sold off ebay are not the correct gasket. Also those wrist pin circlips sold on ebay don't fit as good as the original Honda wrist pin circlips, even though it is considered improper to use, used circlips, I prefer to use the used Honda circlips over the "new" poor fitting ones.
Keep us posted on your progress, hope you get it up and running soon.

[BigPapa]

Final drive oil, final reduction oil, transmission gear lube or whatever Honda wants to call is ALL refers to 10W-40, right?

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

Yes, just regular motor oil. My car takes 4 quarts and some fraction. I use Leftovers to fill the gearcase to the drain plug lower rim using an oil can. Fill 'til it slops back.

[BigPapa]

I took your advice and ordered new OEM pin clips from the local Honda dealer. Should get here Monday and then ready for final assembly. Few more questions if you would be so grateful. What is the trick to getting the piston with rings inside the cylinder. I used a hose clamp to tighten the rings to the piston and inserted the piston into the bottom of the cylinder. It went in part way then broken one ring. Should I be entering from the top of the cylinder head? Also, guessing that an 85 has conventional 2 cycling oil, not synthetic. The local motorcycle shop I was at today, ordering new tires!!!, only had synthetic. Should probably go the Honday dealer to get conventional - don't want to mix the two. Lastly, am also taking your advice and dumping out all the 10W-40 and using new. Thanks!!!

[swimmingfree]

i just use my finger to hold the ring in place the bottom of the jug is taper ....you did not have the ends of the rings in the wright spot... there is two little pinds on the piston that stop the rings from turing ....
swimmingfree