Drive belt breaking slider guides? (moved 94-01 belt topic)

[paulpauly7]

he needs a electric scooter .

[patthesoundguy]

EBKAC

[bajack]

maybe you could find out whats wrong with it if its something wrong with it, and its not the part number # on the belt.

[bajack]

what should I tell the guy at the honda powersports place? about getting the wrong part numbers in. who to hunt down to blame on it?

[bajack]

all i said was i was trying to find out why the plastic slide guides where going out and it happennd at the same time this belt was tossed on. i tried to rule out everything else.

reported it here cause as i cross referenced the belt, that i had got, i noticed it was listed as an application for a belt that was listed here under the sa50 94-01 belt topic.

im searching myself to fix my bike. and if you guys have suggestions, please be clarifying, in what you think and what to check. cause ive checked what i think it is. and dont want to get out there and hunt around more.

and my second reason is i ordered teh 751 belt from honda but they sent me this. so in case anybody orders a belt, they know to look for this. the 23100-gg2-7500 belt. dont swap it in. i want to test mine so i can say for sure the belt doesn't work.

everything i think is breaking this is showing exactly the symptoms. i didnt post every last thing cause you seen when the mousewheels guy, noticed the ramp plate damage, which i left in that picture. i knew about it, and it was actually the first thing i noticed. but i wasnt as concerned about that, but i was concerend about the protectedd part with the plastic guides and them digging. whatever caused the guides to dig, done that too. and it seems like something off center. is what id think.

ask me ive got a digital set of calipers. the crank arm is this long piece, and for the whole thing, to thin out? i dont think so. and i ran my cvt and spun it by hand, and slid the drive boss on and it seems sturdy enough. and so does the boss in the stock or any other variator i have laying around here. it seems sturdy. not out of service limits. you can usually even hit a service limit, be able to tell by hand, and still, not get any bad damage. over time maybe really rag it out. youll notice something, maybe something will break down.

but this aint that. its got new pieces on it, or stock parts. not really old parts either. everythings like spanking new almost. especially the belt. this problem i didnt have until this belt was installed.

[bajack]

Obviously it's user error if all the parts are perfect. Only thing left is the the mechanic is at fault. I bet the tune will change now that it's been established you can't install a simple variator correctly. Don't ask us how you can't figure out how to install a variator but its obvious you can't. So give up and buy a kick scooter.

how can you blame it on me when I'm using all stock parts. just becuase I ordered an elite belt then got a different part number, doesnt mean i tore it up. i was trying to hunt down my problem my summary of my topic is I got a 23100-gg2-7500 belt and its whats been tearing it up. It's not the stock Honda Elite sa50 94-01 belt. And they sent it to me when I ordered a belt, the Honda shop did. So, anyone who orders a belt, be on the lookout and look over your part numbers before you rip open the bags and toss on stuff that has honda on the sticker.

[LMH]

I still stand behind the voodoo theory.

[bajack]

we might have to go with your voodoo theory.

but thinking back about this.

i ran the koso variator, and the stock rest of the parts. didnt take much notice of the ..
ok heres what happenned.

koso variator stock kick plate. just got the koso. not sure where the black slides came in, but they didnt look so bad after i looked at them. the one set i had i had ran, with some setup. ok so i dont know what happenned.
ran the koso on stock S transmission, and i noticed guide slide damage. noticed the ramp plate was off. ran the koso variator with the aftermarket phongeer ramp plate and a stock tested successful before ramp plate. then, took apart, had slide guide damage. then swapped out to stock elite variator with stock elite ramp plate. with phongeer ramp plate. 10 miles testing trips i was doing. slide guide damage. now at this part, i ran that phongeer, maybe it was it, or the koso variator with it. maybe the kick ramp phongeer got damaged with that variator. anyway. the damage wasnt as bad so i retested another 10 miles. little worse, the slide guides where after, but not so bad. tested again, not so bad, then i took it out for 30 miles to see what long distance would do. noticed a weird sound as i left out. i think maybe the ramp plate got turned sideways by the variator and knocked it out of being straight. anyway when i got back i noticed this time slide guides looked about as usual, a little worse but not so bad. so i was going out again for 30 more miles when i installed it and the ramp plate had gotten the aluminum teeth ate out. the crank was still good. the splines on it, where still not beyond use. but the ramp plate had a wobble and wouldnt even hold straight. even with it tightened down. now, i think that first ride with the messed up variator done that. ...? my guess. so i swapped it, over to the stock kcik plate. done that for like 10 miles. then i went over to the koso variator again, with a chinese ramp plate, and i thought it was pretty bad, not making any sense to me. i either swapped out all my slides and got my best 3 and kept them. or it just wasnt as bad as i had thought to begin with in the first place. swapped to the koso variator for a 10 mile test. didnt like it, swapped back to elite, then i think after that i just gave up since the slides i thought where already damaged and needed replaced and no use trying to ride it. i ran the elite variator with a chinese ramp plate. i did swap to a new chinese ramp plate besides the one i had used earlier. the line on the back of the ramp plates is on all of my ramp plates that have never touched this cvt in a few years. its just where it sets on the back of the crankshaft agasint that spot where it goes to. the extra damage was from the mismade? koso variator then, the damage it done if theres any damage to my other ramp plates as bad, what it done to the phongeer kick plate.

im, goign to say its from the koso variator that the screwed up, easily the aluminum phongeer kick ramp, and it led to everythign else showing the same damage.

another thing i found out. gates have started to make crappier belts. i measured the brand new one. havent even put it on. not going to either, i dont think. my old belt, measures, 14.8-14.9 all around the belt. the new belt, measures 14.5 about half of it, and 14.8 the other half.

i cant say anything else ive found on the rest of the belts until i test.

[bajack]

Your pictures are confusing. They make no sense. What's the point of it? Looks like you're showing sliders but why. I'm lost.
Fwiw I havent changed my sliders or vario on my race prepped mhr build ever and it's going on 3200+ miles strong. And same malossi belt.

wheres your pictures at?


I sure could use some pictures of someones slide guides about right now..

you know how it is, start working on something then youve thrown everything away used, and dont know how something looked from before anymore.

[mousewheels]

I sure could use some pictures of someones slide guides about right now..

Here's OEM parts at ~3k miles:

Ramp_Plate_and_Guides_3k_miles.JPG (98.29 KiB) Viewed 6354 times

OEM_Ramp_Guides_3k_miles.jpg (133.5 KiB) Viewed 6354 times

Ramp_Plate_crankshaft_side_3k_miles.JPG (37.9 KiB) Viewed 6354 times

[bajack]

the outer part. im not having a ring getting dug in on the back now, and i dont have to use the stock ramp plate. but i am using the stock variator with the same results. i need to use this other stock type i got on ebay, looks the same just doesnt have metts and stuff wrote on it, i thought maybe it might of had problems is why i never tested it.

the outside of that slide guide, where it touches the ramp.

heres the first set i noticed.

[mousewheels]

the outer part. im not having a ring getting dug in on the back now, and i dont have to use the stock ramp plate. but i am using the stock variator with the same results. i need to use this other stock type i got on ebay, looks the same just doesnt have metts and stuff wrote on it, i thought maybe it might of had problems is why i never tested it.

the outside of that slide guide, where it touches the ramp.

I do not see enough detail of the failure from your pics to comment, yet post opinion, and pics in case it is helpful.

-- Arm chair troubleshooting
IMHO, Honda designed the Variator/ramp plate and guides such that worst case, there is no bind between the ramp plate to guide seat and the variator splines the guides ride on. Centrifugal force will force the guides outwards. Thus they should only wear on the variator side, with design tolerance giving an air gap on the inner side of the guides.


Possible sources of Damage to the guides inner surface:

• Worn hole dia in the ramp plate
• Wear or excess slop in the variator bore -> variator bushing wear.
• Undersized or worn spacer which the variator rides upon on the crankshaft
• Worn crankshaft dia in the area of the ramp plate interface

-- Supporting data: Wear at 3k miles on inner surface of guides
I looked for inner guide surface wear, yet see *zero* wear on the posted 3k miles parts.

Ramp_Plate_Sllider_3k_miles_inside-wear.JPG (69.04 KiB) Viewed 6343 times

[bajack]

is that both sides? looks like that? this was only happenning on one side of my guides.

i dont know what to do now. ive checked over everything. rechecked, and checked more.

i have two possibilities. that koso variator done it. or the driven pulleys, outer bearing, is making a little bit of a noise. i have a little bit, of wobbling but i think its just probably an off balanced tire, a little. and i hear a little bit of rattling and some vibration. i think the rattling comes from teh exhaust wne the scooter starts vibrating. the vibrating coming, i think from the bearing in the driven pulley.

so i checked this extra bike i got. and got its driven pulley off, but its bearings moving up and down a lot. so i checked its variator too. it had the same deal as mine does now. but, its got a bad driven pulley. so i can't say if thats normal or not. so it was not worth the time to check it.

but the worst damage done to my bike was when that koso variator was reused, in any combination with any parts. you wouldnt notice it off center. but you also wouldnt much notice the ramp plates hole off center either.

when i noticed any damage that could of been this. once i took off the ramp plate kicker, and it was a little tough to pull off. then i noticed some metal shreddings stuff around the beginning of the splines. like the ends where being cut off. or the last thread of the part.

So, I.. dont know now. I'm going to say, always install your variator with the drive boss installed too first. on a new variator. then if it all doesnt go on straight, then don't use it.

I just don't have nothing much to compare it with. ahhgg.


anybody else want to show some pictures of your old guide slides? got some laying around anywhere? if they come out damaged any, what happenned?

i guess the bike junkyard might have a not messed up driven pulley there. off an aero or an older elite. theyre the same part number. So I can test this.

[mousewheels]

is that both sides? looks like that? this was only happenning on one side of my guides.

Oh, I thought you wanted the inside edge, because the first set of pics showed little wear at points labeled 1,4,5,8.

Ramp_Slider_Wear__3k_miles.jpg (80.85 KiB) Viewed 6312 times

Here's a pic of each side. There's not much wear on the plate/guide surfaces

Ramp_Guides_3k_miles_minor_wear_at_ramp_contact_area.jpg (138.06 KiB) Viewed 6312 times

[mousewheels]

when i noticed any damage that could of been this. once i took off the ramp plate kicker, and it was a little tough to pull off. then i noticed some metal shreddings stuff around the beginning of the splines. like the ends where being cut off. or the last thread of the part.

Oh you had a Spun drive plate? That would explain the ramp plate wear at the crank shoulder seat.

Next time you put together a combination, it could be helpful to scribe a witness mark on the crank and drive plate.

If there is *any* drive plate/crank slipping still going on, it could be the main cause of ramp plate/crank wear and guide wear.