86 Spree ALMOST running after 10 years. Almost. Advice?

[SciFiGuy]

I came on this forum a few months back and said I had picked up an 86 Spree with only 1,400 miles on it. It had not been run since 2005.

I cleaned it up real good, including the carb, replaced the dead battery with a gel-cell, and replaced the spark plug wire.

Throttle screw on carb backed out 1 1/2 turns. Air screw 2 1/4 back I think.

Bottom screw on the float bowl...I did maybe a full turn out but I couldn't find anything in the manual on specs for it. (EDIT: I guess this is supposed to be snugged down, NOT backed out)

Before I did all that, I put a little oil down the cylinder and let it sit and later cranked the engine by hand. Engine was free, compression is good. Carb is getting fuel. There is good spark. Electricals seem solid.

But...it will start up and run for about fifteen seconds and die. Twisting the throttle doesn't seem to do anything to the revolutions at all. It will still die.

On one start-up, a bunch of gas came out the overflow onto the ground after it died. That's why I tightened up the float bowl screw a bit more. But when I did it too much, the bike wouldn't start at all.

I have a feeling this is carb-related somehow, and I don't think I'm far off from getting it going.

QUESTIONS:

1) When you put the throttle cable and assembly there back on top of the carb, which way is the cylinder supposed to face? In some positions, you can't get it all the way in. Manual says 'groove faces same direction as the idle screw,' but the picture isn't too good on what this means. Sometimes it feels as if the throttle isn't really hooked up right.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. This is actually a fairly nice bike and was kept in a garage the whole time.

Starts up, idles steady for about 10-15 seconds, then dies. When I turned in the float bowl screw at the bottom of the carb, it wouldn't start at all. Gasoline and oil were drained and changed before doing anything else on the bike, of course. Motor is NQ-50.

EDIT: I saw this:

'Replace the vacuum hose to the intake manifold.'
(May have to check this. Don't remember seeing this hose.)

'Reinstall the throttle slider. There is a peg inside the barrel. There is a slot along the top to bottom of the barrel. Align and drop in the throttle. Screw cap tightly.'

(Okay, the throttle slider is probably not installed correctly, although if its wrong, I did NOT force it past the peg. The manual shows this slot as going side to side, when it is actually up and down.) Also, the thick gasket between the carb and the intake has a circular gasket installed in it that basically matches one on the carb side. I installed this gasket with the circle facing the CARB, so that it touches the other circular one on the carb. Don't know if this is correct or not.)

[Meloshameless]

Air screw should be 1 1/2 turns out. It also sounds like either idle circuit in carb may be clogged or perhaps to much gas or air. Best way to find out is disconnect air box and use ur hand to cover carb mouth. If more air makes it run then to much gas, that could be auto choke flooding, if. Covering carb works better then its not getting enough air so passages in carb clogged or intake leak, crank seals bad etc. Also if ur air or fuel is cracked that can do also. Also check exaust. Mine had dirt plugging it poked a scre driver in and she came to life. Lol. Good luck..

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

Welcome to the Madness.

There are detailed carb-cleaning instructions in WikiSpreedia and in the Tech sections. Almost impossible to clean that carb without a long soak in Berryman's and a thorough evaluation of all the tiny channels, including the bystarter and pilot tower, probing with fine wires and using a couple of cans of spray cleaner. Your float needle might need replacement even if it LOOKS fine under magnification, and polish up its seat with rubbing compound and a partially-stripped Q-Tip. It sounded like it was overfilling, a sure sign of a bad float assembly and/or needle. It can be tricky to engage the "T" in the float needle with the little prongs on the float, too.

Once you have the passages clear, The brown plastic thing is called the carb "Insulator", and your description of installation might well be your problem. There are 4 ways to install it, and 3 of them are incorrect. The "ears" must point down. You want : METAL - O-RING - PLASTIC - O-RING - METAL. Otherwise the smallest of air leaks might keep it from drawing a combustible mixture.

The throttle slide's groove faces IN, toward the wheel to mate with the nub in the slide bore. As Melo said, you pre-adjust the carb screws to "purty close" and tune once you have ignition. Go easy on that air screw; being brass it's easy to damage the end if you tighten much past "snug". Also don't leave the slide adjustor too high; the bystarter works best with the throttle slide pretty close to Closed.

I'm confident you'll get this beauty back on the road. Replace the tires and belt as soon as you can.

[SciFiGuy]

I have copied and printed your advice. I already re-installed the throttle slide...correctly this time. I will work on the bike this afternoon and return when I have success. This is sort of like working on the old Hondas I used to have back in the day, (550/4, 750 partially chopped) only a LOT smaller. Eventually they all give in and run. I hope.

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

If the slide was on backwards, it might be the whole reason it wouldn't start. You can hope; carb cleaning AGAIN is a PITA. The throttle really needs to be closed for the bystarter circuit to work correctly - on a cold engine, at least. When warm, it seems to need a little throttle if the bystarter goes back to "Choke" prematurely.

[doug9694]

If gas is leaking that is an indication of the needle/seat not closing off. The gas level in the carb. should never overflow on level ground. the needle seat should shut off flow before the level in the bowl reaches the gasket. Also the hose on the bottom of the gas outlet at the tank is to open the upper hose to the carb. bowl.
A vacuum pulse from the inlet opens the gas to the top hose. When you pull off the bottom hose there should be no gas there. When you remove the top one you should get a small
amount and then stop. if you suck on the bottom hose fuel should flow out the top. Then stop when vacuum is no longer there. If fuel keeps running out then there is a problem with the valve.

Make sure you have a good filter and it seals good in the air box. Sprees tend to overheat if the filter is not there. The filter restricts air and that in turn causes the gas in the carb. to be sucked in.
The extra gas cools the cylinder. Too much gas floods and fouls the plug. Sounds like you have an over rich fuel problem. See what the compression ratio is. 105 .8 PSI is what the manual calls for.
Below 95 is not good. Ring cylinder/wear is common on these small 2 cycles running at 10,000 RPM.

[MrJumps]

Sounds like a crank seal or carb issue like you are onto, vheck crank seals for cracks or if one popped out. When I got my hands on my 86 that had sat of 20ish years both seals were gone, they where dry rotted so bad. Also make sure your pet * is flowing good. Pull both lines off the carb and neith should have any flow, apply vacume to the vacume line, lower one I belive off hand and if furl flows steadily your good if it is steady flowing but without vacume then you have a bad petcock. Was a issue I had and would flood the bike bad and the carb spewed gas. Also make sure your recitfier and grounds are all there and look pluged in or held on to the frame good or giving it a rev will short out the spark. I had a issue with this on my dioswap for the longest time and kept thinking it was my carb but it was the rectifier wasnt attached to the frame.

[SciFiGuy]

After a more thorough inspection and some work, I may have narrowed down the problem. Bike and all seals are in good shape. It will start and run for maybe ten seconds and die.

I think it's in the throttle cable. When you have it out, it twists and returns fine. When you put it in and screw down the cap, even one turn, it binds and sticks. It's not a clogged jet, either. Carb is very clean and float is fine. I have tried several positions around with the throttle cylinder, too.

This carb has three screws on the same side. Top one is the spring-loaded screw. Center is unknown. Bottom is the bowl screw.

Anyone know the adjustment to the CENTER screw? I know the top screw with the spring is 1 1/2 turns out. Bottom one for the bowl is probably 'seated lightly'. Center one is what?

Inserting the throttle cable is the tricky part. You can tell much depends on facing the cylinder correctly, the one with the needle and the cable. Works outside the carb, put it in and the throttle twist grip seems to stick and bind.

[patthesoundguy]

Alright the screw in question is the idle air mixture screw, it should start about 1.5 turn or a little more out for a starting point. There is procedure in the manual to set the idle speed and the idle mixture they are dependant on each other. Now to get the thottle slide in so it doesn't jam you new to line up the pin on the hole to the slot on the slide and the whole thing should be good. Have a look in the hole and make sure the guide pin is not worn of or missing that would cause binding. The bottom screw on the float bowl on the carb is the bowl drain screw if you un seat it you drain the carb. Even the cleanest looking spree carb can have a clogged pilot jet. Did you clean the pilot jet in the float bowl? It is a little brass orifice in the float bowl, It 100% has to be clear for the spree to run correctly. I would also have a look in the tank with a flashlight and check the condition of the filter screen, they can be clogged with varnish partway up from the bottom o the tank causing fuel flow issues, especially at or below a half tank. Put a catch pan or container under the scooter and crack the bowl drain screw see no much fuel comes out, then crank the motor over with the plug wire off and see how much fuel flows should be steady

[doug9694]

A Spree, and many others have what is called a bystarter automatic choke. This valve is open for cold starts. It closes by having an electrical heater that heats and expands a gel substance that forces the start valve closed. By then the engine should run on the idle circuit if in good condition.
If the idle circuit is defective the engines dies. If you unplug the bystarter valve the engine might stay running through that circuit. I have had an engine run with it unplugged and than die if it is plugged back in.
After cleaning the idle circuit the engine ran fine.
The idle screw adjustment is different for 84-85 and for my 86 says 1-3/8. A good starting point is the 1-1/2 turns mentioned by pathesoundguy. Turn it in and out to find best run opening. If no difference then idle circuit may be clogged or some air leak somewhere. Perhaps the bystarter valve or circuit.

[MrJumps]

Okay let me state theres actaully a chance for it to be bystarter related. Very commonly would be this lart so lets go ahead and test it, it takes 5 minutes and its a eazy test.
1. Bystarters have 0 gel in them, they heat up a metal sleeve that pushes the shaft down to block off the warmup circuit once they are fully running. Good guess though Doug

Scifi guy, I am gonna have you unplug your bystarter and remove it out the carb. Then I cant remeber off the top of my head but there is a certain procedure for this... maybe Doug can help.

**Spoilers below**

You can also remove the bystarter out the bike and see if it moves with your eye if you dont have a vacumme tester.

Testing the bystarter
The Honda Service manual outlines a test
With the engine off and cold, connect a vacuum or pressure pump to the bystarter air passage. Air should freely flow.
Apply 12v to the bystarter yellow and green wires. Wait a few minutes, then activate the pressure or vacuum pump. The air valve is not expected to be air tight, but flow should be well restricted.

http://hondaspree.net/wiki/index.php5?t ... at_It_Does


Some talented people have posted in the wiki, some untalented people have the right to post on the fourms.

[patthesoundguy]

Mr Jumps is right. The vacuum test is the best way. And it can be done with an ear syringe from the drug store. Just push the syringe against the port on the carb and squeeze. If air flows its in the enrich mode and now flow its in normal warm mode. So if air flows when the motor has had adequate time to warm up the bystarter is not working correctly or has a problem with the electrical connections.

[SciFiGuy]

Thanks for all the advice. I will be working on the scooter tomorrow. Too hot right now in Seattle. Wait till morning. It's almost 90 here right now.

[blake05]

Any updates I am having similar issues. Bystarter is definitely broken for me but I wouldn't expect that to cause extreme rpms

[patthesoundguy]

Any updates I am having similar issues. Bystarter is definitely broken for me but I wouldn't expect that to cause extreme rpms

If the bystarter is not installed or leaking tons where the oring is you will get high runaway racing of the motor.