1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

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dsandwich
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1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

Post by dsandwich »

Hello folks,

I hope everyone is healthy and safe during these scary times. One of the positives of this lockdown (in the Washington, DC area) is that I can address my starter issues on my 1985 Honda Gyro. I pulled the starter off the scoot and took it apart. No wonder it didn't spin. It was completely full of oil. Also, please see attached pics. I'm not sure what a proper starter's insides should look like, but if one pigtail is screwed to the frame and the other isn't, it seems to me that something is wrong. Also, the brushes are pretty worn down. If anyone can give me some guidance, I would appreciate it.

I've read a lot of posts and I'm wondering if this starter would be a good replacement, or if I could buy this starter and use the internals to rebuild my Gyro starter. https://www.jackssmallengines.com/jacks ... ad/smu0374
I called Jack's small engines and the support rep wasn't much help. If I can just get the brushes and pigtails, I'd be happy. Also, not sure if something wore out, but with the amount of oil in the starter, I imagine a gasket failed. Maybe I'm wrong...

If someone can point me to where to buy the parts I need, I would appreciate it. Any guidance would be appreciated.

Stay safe, and thank you,

Rich
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harleyracer59
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Re: 1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

Post by harleyracer59 »

lightly sand the brush faces, a light scrub over the center shaft faces commutator? a dollop of grease in the back bearing cavity, slap it back together. that wire that sticking up should be connected to something. I cant remember of the top of my head. but youre missing something. the one terminal goes to ground because this is a dc starter. if it had oil in it I think theres a seal in that top cap that's gone bad. there's an o ring on the outer mounting surface, that's to keep oil from leaking out the gear box starter cavity. sounds like the oring is good no oil leaking from starter mounting location, right?
dsandwich
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Re: 1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

Post by dsandwich »

Thanks, Harleyracer59. That wire is the big mystery. I understand the one screwed to the frame is for ground and it's in good shape. At least that one is where it should be. There is an o-ring on the shaft of the starter near where it engages the flywheel. Seems to be in good shape. No oil comes out of the scoot where the starter mounts to it. I wish I had taken a picture. The starter was literally full of oil. I was too busy grabbing shop rags so I couldn't grab my camera. But bottom line, no leaks at the engine/starter mount point.

You can also the contact for the positive pigtail on the starter has seen better days. Pretty worn out. Would love to find parts I can scavenge from another starter, or a 1:1 replacement if someone has had better luck shopping online.
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harleyracer59
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Re: 1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

Post by harleyracer59 »

the problem is gyro spins backwards from the rest of the honda scooters. I cant tell in your pic but the side with the wire stitching up should look lie a mirrored image of the other side. the wire should connect to a brush like the other side and those brushes slide into the little tracks vertically when looking down at it. the spring pushes thes brushes towards the center where the shaft slides in. hope this makes sense.
ive taken them apart and cleaned them up and rebuilt them. ive never had to replace internal parts though. so I cant say if they can swap similar parts from one model starter to the other. I can tell you that aero starters are very similar looking internally aero starters will even bolt into one of the gyros with same tooth count. they just spin in opposite direction
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Re: 1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

Post by dsandwich »

Yep, I understand where the brushes go. I took a better pic and actually looked at it sober-- too much Coors Light when i wrote my original post. As you can see from these new pics, the ground brush is attached, but the positive brush (if that's what I should call it) is missing. So unless I solder on a new brush, or can somehow buy the plastic frame (rebuild kit?) that everything is mounted to, I need some new parts. So my gut says I should try to find a direct replacement 11-tooth starter from another scoot. Some have said this is a good starting point: https://www.jackssmallengines.com/jacks ... ad/smu0374 but it sounds like it's a $35 guess. I don't mind scavenging the parts and rebuilding, but I don't want to throw away $35 plus shipping to find out I'm cannibalizing from the wrong parts bin. I just kinda figured that I can't be the first person in the group with this problem. So unless someone else chimes in, I may have to spend the money. It's strange-- I always complain about wasting money, but I always consider a bar tab money well-spent. Thanks, by the way, for your guidance, Harley. Much appreciated.
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motormike
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Re: 1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

Post by motormike »

Following here Rich... :shock:
I've never been that deep into a Gyro starter.
I have understanding of starter motors in general.
I was pretty sure that other braided wire was attached to another brush, but
hesitated to reply not knowing how to help.
I see mention of Aero starters being the same, but spinning the opposite direction.
My logic tells me that if you take an Aero starter and reverse polarity,
it would spin the other direction. Not sure if that is right or wrong.
In any event, wish you all the luck with it.
This is why I am sitting on a spare starter for my Gyro.... :urban: ... :coolcruise:
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Re: 1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

Post by btosi »

Not sure if this will help, but my local Ace Hardware has a pretty good selection of brushes in their parts bin/drawer section of the store. You may be able to come up with something that may work.
dsandwich
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Re: 1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

Post by dsandwich »

Thanks, Btosi. Would not have thought about "Ace is the place" for brushes. I called a couple local small engine shops but no one answered the phone. We're locked down pretty tight in Maryland... not to mention it's Good Friday. It doesn't feel like a good friday, but I'm sitting at home doing scooter research, so maybe it's not so bad. Happy Easter to all!
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Re: 1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

Post by mousewheels »

The OEM Suzuki LT-80 Quadsport starter was made by Mitsuba, and used the same brushes/springs and brush holder.

Brush kits as well as rebuild kits are available on eBay as well as other vendors for the LT-80.

Here is a link to a Honda Spree thread . There is a photo comparing the LT-80 brush to a Gyro brush.
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harleyracer59
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Re: 1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

Post by harleyracer59 »

I have t torn into the aero starter but you can see they’re identical. Only difference is the direction they spin. I imagine they would use same brushes and stuff. Worth a try.
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mousewheels
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Re: 1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

Post by mousewheels »

harleyracer59 wrote:I have t torn into the aero starter but you can see they’re identical. Only difference is the direction they spin. I imagine they would use same brushes and stuff. Worth a try.
Yes. The Spree/85-87 Aero and 88-93 Elite SA50 starters use the same brushes, brush holder, springs and bearing.

The spin direction is set by the magnet orientation in the starter case. Thus if you pair a Spree/Aero/early Elite armature with a Gyro case, it will spin the correct direction.

-- To reverse starter direction w/o rewiring the brush holder --
If no Gyro can is available, you can grind off the alignment tabs on the starter case. Then rotate the case 180 degrees on assembly.

In the photo below, the can is rotated to show why is is necessary to grind the alignment tab.
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mousewheels
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Re: 1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

Post by mousewheels »

harleyracer59 wrote:I have t torn into the aero starter but you can see they’re identical.
There's one part of 'identical' digging into. What is the tooth count on your Gyro starter? The OEM starter's I have for NN50 and TG50 Gyro's are 10 teeth.
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harleyracer59
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Re: 1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

Post by harleyracer59 »

mousewheels wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:15 pm
harleyracer59 wrote:I have t torn into the aero starter but you can see they’re identical.
There's one part of 'identical' digging into. What is the tooth count on your Gyro starter? The OEM starter's I have for NN50 and TG50 Gyro's are 10 teeth.
that's awesome about the twisting the can to switch direction.
however youre half right on the starters. one is 10 tooth the other is 11. you cant swap starters between nn and tg. I believe the 84 nn50 is the oddball 10 tooth and the 85-86 tg50 is the common 11 tooth. I could have it swapped around though. I cant remember
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Re: 1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

Post by mousewheels »

harleyracer59 wrote:that's awesome about the twisting the can to switch direction.
harleyracer59 wrote:however youre half right on the starters. one is 10 tooth the other is 11. you cant swap starters between nn and tg. I believe the 84 nn50 is the oddball 10 tooth and the 85-86 tg50 is the common 11 tooth. I could have it swapped around though. I cant remember
Thanks for the 11T clarification :thumbwink: I see on eBay sellers are careful now to mention 11T for TG50. Thus I need to update what I've posted elsewhere.

Years ago I did mock up a TG50 case side, Bendix and 11T starter. I still have the Bendix in a bag and repeated the mock up last night. It still binds. I'd conclude the Bendix I used for fit testing is not the correct part.
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Re: 1985 Honda Gyro starter issues

Post by harleyracer59 »

that's probably a tg starter and a nn Bendix. when I tried the 10tooth nn50 starter on a tg Bendix it made a god awful screeching noise
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