Trouble restarting when warm...

SanJoseMichael · Post by **SanJoseMichael** » Wed May 18, 2005 2:48 pm

1985 Spree, when it's cold, it starts fine, runs okay. After I ride it for a while, I turn it off.... then 2 minutes later (or 5 or 10 or 15 minutes, whatever) when I try to start it again, it will not start. Seems to have trouble starting up when it's been warmed up.

Seems that if I give it some trottle while trying start it, it will eventually start, but not reliably.

Hints, tips, clues??

Thanks.

vette76 · Post by **vette76** » Wed May 18, 2005 3:15 pm

i hate to say it because ive been through it but it sounds like low compression. what happens is the metal expands and the rings dont seal as well as when its cold. i bet it lacks power when hot too, right? u need a new ring set.

SanJoseMichael · Post by **SanJoseMichael** » Wed May 18, 2005 4:07 pm

Rings? That's not what I wanted to hear, but it makes sense. Next thing I do is a compression test cold and then a compression test hot, I guess that'll tell me. I suppose it could be any sealing mechanism (gaskets or rings) that could fail to seal when expansion occurs because of heat.

It may not run great when warm, I don't know, as the only thing I can compare it to is a Puch moped, and the Spree is much nicer, much more powerful than the poor old Pooch.

Thanks for info, not what I was hoping to hear, but it's what I needed to hear!

MG

vette76 · Post by **vette76** » Wed May 18, 2005 4:13 pm

u might also want to take the cylander to a machine shop or motorcycle shop to measure it. i would also get it honed.

Post by **noiseguy** » Thu May 19, 2005 6:03 am

I need to write a FAQ on ring replacement. Let's hope you don't need it.

If you have low compression:

Remove jug, have it measured to see if you can get away with a hone job and oversize rings on the original piston. Otherwise, plan on a new oversize piston and rings.

For a new piston, you'll need the piston, circlip pins, rings, and new base/head gasket, and rod bearings. For new OS rings only, just the rings and gaskets.

Plan on buying all the parts mailorder, to save money. www.servicehonda.com should save you about 20-50% over the local Honda shop. This is a big deal, b/c you need about $100 in parts for an OS piston from the shop. Jerry went through this in an old post:

Part Honda$ Partsfish$
Rings (std) 15.81 22.99
Piston (std) 23.67 40.99
Circlips (2) 1.24 1.99
Rod bearing 4.24 7.99

Plan on another $40 for bore/hone.

For a rebore, it may be cheaper to contact Richardson for a stock jug and piston for re-honing to oversize (or to use as-is). I think someone here went that route.

BTW, the "oversize" piston won't make it faster b/c of the increase in displacement. The increase is miniscule, fractional. It will be faster b/c it has better compression. This is also a good time to decarbonize the head and exhaust port.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Thu May 19, 2005 3:39 pm

If the compression checks out to be alright, look closely at the carb. The choke assembly could be allowing too much gas when warm and that makes it hard to start. The key here is you stating that if the throttle is opened, it wants to start or tries to start. Too much gas when warm may be the only real problem you have.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Thu May 19, 2005 3:51 pm

While on the subject, let me interject that I have done many a 'ring only' job. One of my bikes I just got through doing this to. For a cost of less than $30, I replaced the rings, jug gasket and head gasket. (Dealer prices). Compression was 30 lbs before and 105 after.
Simply pull the jug, stuff rags around piston to keep anything from falling in, clean any gasket material from bottom of jug/crankcase remove and replace rings on piston, scratch the cylinder wall really well with fine grade emery cloth and lubricate with two stroke oil and compress rings to replace jug and head. Tighten to specs and use the bike. Take it easy for the first thirty to forty minutes and then ride as usual. I used stock size rings, not oversized.
About three hundred miles already and compression is still at 105.

vette76 · Post by **vette76** » Thu May 19, 2005 4:34 pm

i thought compression was supposed to be around 114?

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Sun May 22, 2005 10:15 am

Anything over 100 and the bike is going to run just fine. Actually, at lower compression, they seem to run alright, just low on power.

vette76 · Post by **vette76** » Sun May 22, 2005 11:03 am

yeah, because i had 100 and it idled good it just didnt have any power at all.

SanJoseMichael · Post by **SanJoseMichael** » Tue May 24, 2005 5:05 pm

I have not yet checked compression, as I have to find where the * I put the tester, now that I've "cleaned up" my garage!

Jerry, you suggested I check the choke assemlby, may be too much gas when warm... Funny thing is, in order to restart it when warm I need to give it more gas!

When warm, just hitting the start button will not start it, I have to twist throttle up to 2/3 or 3/4 while cranking, then it will start.

My hunch is it's carb related... or maybe I don't really want to do the rings!

Thanks for hints, ideas and clues.

vette76 · Post by **vette76** » Tue May 24, 2005 6:06 pm

same with me. i had to give it gas. rings solved this.

SanJoseMichael · Post by **SanJoseMichael** » Tue May 24, 2005 6:29 pm

Well, I guess there's no getting around it, time to get deep and get dirty! (I guess that's why the guy who sold it to me sold it at bargain prices!).

vette76 · Post by **vette76** » Tue May 24, 2005 6:56 pm

hope your cylander doesnt look like mine did when i pulled that head off.

SanJoseMichael · Post by **SanJoseMichael** » Wed May 25, 2005 12:23 pm

I'm curious as to why it might need a ring job. Granted, my 1985 Spree is almost 20 years old, but in only has 1,200 or 1,300 miles on it. The only thing I can imagine is that somewhere in it's past life, someone ran it without oil, or that the oil pump gave out somewhere along the way, and even though the bike had oil in it's tank, it was not mixing/injecting with gas to lubricate. Is that a reasonable theory?