1985 honda spree nq50.
Replaced gaskets. Has spark. Gets fuel. No start at all.
Havn't had a way to check compression, but it seems low. Whats the good and cheap way to start with replacing parts for helping compression?
Reeds? piston rings? crank seals?
do they make engine rebuild kits fairly cheap for this bike?
thanks, drew
No Start
Moderator: Moderator
Ok, doing the thumb over the spark plug hole doesn't seem to always work. Look at my bike, 1986 Spree. Runs excellent. But, if I put my thumb over the spark plug hole and crank it, it definitely does not push my thumb out of the hole. Also, when I hook my bike up to a compression tester, it reads 50 psi. Obviously, that can't be right, as she runs beautifully. She also has new piston rings, too.
But hey, I've got an easy test for ya. First, take the spark plug out. Next, spray some starter fluid, wd-40, anything combustible in aerosol form into the cylinder. Put spark plug back in, try to start. If it does start, you might not be getting as much fuel as you think.....
If that doesn't work, take the spark plug out, put about 1 tablespoon of 2-stroke oil into the hole. Crank the bike over a few times (keep the spark plug out!). Then, put one more tablespoon in, put the spark plug back in, hook it up, and then try to start the bike. If you have bad piston rings, the bike should start right up.
Also, one way you can see if your reed-valves are bad is to take the air filter assembly off of the bike, and blow compressed air directly into the intake of the carb as you're starting it. If they're bad, it should start right up.
I'm also going to assume you have a new, correct spark plug, right?
For crank seals, you can try to spray some wd-40 around both sides of the crank and see if it starts as you're doing it......that's a long shot, though.
Also, with piston rings, it's possible they might just be stuck. Sometimes, if you get it running by putting oil into the cylinder, the oil/heat/vibration will knock the piston rings loose, and they'll fix themselves.
As for getting parts, your local Honda dealership should still have most engine components in stock.
But hey, I've got an easy test for ya. First, take the spark plug out. Next, spray some starter fluid, wd-40, anything combustible in aerosol form into the cylinder. Put spark plug back in, try to start. If it does start, you might not be getting as much fuel as you think.....
If that doesn't work, take the spark plug out, put about 1 tablespoon of 2-stroke oil into the hole. Crank the bike over a few times (keep the spark plug out!). Then, put one more tablespoon in, put the spark plug back in, hook it up, and then try to start the bike. If you have bad piston rings, the bike should start right up.
Also, one way you can see if your reed-valves are bad is to take the air filter assembly off of the bike, and blow compressed air directly into the intake of the carb as you're starting it. If they're bad, it should start right up.
I'm also going to assume you have a new, correct spark plug, right?
For crank seals, you can try to spray some wd-40 around both sides of the crank and see if it starts as you're doing it......that's a long shot, though.
Also, with piston rings, it's possible they might just be stuck. Sometimes, if you get it running by putting oil into the cylinder, the oil/heat/vibration will knock the piston rings loose, and they'll fix themselves.
As for getting parts, your local Honda dealership should still have most engine components in stock.
1986 Honda Spree - Running amazing.....body work still needs to be done, but that's a Spring job.
I have had it started doing the flammable liquid straight into the cylinder, but it dies shortly after. Idles high, and dies after like 5 seconds.
The not enough gas issue might be the problem...The petcock is weirding me out. It works when i manually suck on the vacuum hose, but not when it's hooked to the carb (leading me to think low vacuum/compression)
It does work when the vacuum line is hooked to the carb, and i have the fuel line off the petcock though, so thats strange. Works until i put the fuel line back on, then nothing. But the float seems to be getting gas, maybe just not enough.....what's the cuase of this?
Not a new spark plug no, I talked to a honda guy, said hey, spark is spark, you shouldn't need a new one...i should have bought it anyways, just didn't. I dont want to spend unwanted money if i dont need to...thats why i'm stuck here right now...
I'll try the oil in the cylinder method. That seems like a lot of oil to be dumping...?
Are these bikes picky about their air intake? I have no filter and no top cover for my airbox...I have ran bikes before in the same situation, just to get them started...
My exhaust isn't plugged, in fact it is completly off. Shouldn't harm it, will just be loud and may run a little rough until i put it back on...should still start in that case...
the rings aren't stuck..in fact i had the cylinder off. It seems fine. no grooves, etc. piston rings were free. I cleaned them up good and made new gaskets. Made a cylinder base gasket and a new intake gasket. I cleaned up the headgasket from carbon and just applied the metal gasket back. IS THIS METAL GASKET THE ONLY THING NEEDED THERE? seems like there could be leaking past that...maybe not.
Thanks for the reply! drew
The not enough gas issue might be the problem...The petcock is weirding me out. It works when i manually suck on the vacuum hose, but not when it's hooked to the carb (leading me to think low vacuum/compression)
It does work when the vacuum line is hooked to the carb, and i have the fuel line off the petcock though, so thats strange. Works until i put the fuel line back on, then nothing. But the float seems to be getting gas, maybe just not enough.....what's the cuase of this?
Not a new spark plug no, I talked to a honda guy, said hey, spark is spark, you shouldn't need a new one...i should have bought it anyways, just didn't. I dont want to spend unwanted money if i dont need to...thats why i'm stuck here right now...
I'll try the oil in the cylinder method. That seems like a lot of oil to be dumping...?
Are these bikes picky about their air intake? I have no filter and no top cover for my airbox...I have ran bikes before in the same situation, just to get them started...
My exhaust isn't plugged, in fact it is completly off. Shouldn't harm it, will just be loud and may run a little rough until i put it back on...should still start in that case...
the rings aren't stuck..in fact i had the cylinder off. It seems fine. no grooves, etc. piston rings were free. I cleaned them up good and made new gaskets. Made a cylinder base gasket and a new intake gasket. I cleaned up the headgasket from carbon and just applied the metal gasket back. IS THIS METAL GASKET THE ONLY THING NEEDED THERE? seems like there could be leaking past that...maybe not.
Thanks for the reply! drew
1985 honda spree 49cc
2007 lifan 50
2007 lifan 50
-
circusracer
- Goped
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:08 am
- Location: Ovid, MI
Ok, so you're not getting gas.
Easy. Your carbeurator is not clean enough. I could just be like some guys on here and say, "Clean your carb, again and again and again and again..." but I won't. First, it sounds like your petcock is working fine. If it flows gas out of the line when you suck on the vacuum, you're fine. The reason that your petcock seems to not flow gas when hooked to the carb is because your needle-valve in your carbeurator is doing its job. It can't let too much gas into the carb, or else it will run VERY rich and overflow. So, when you're sucking on the vacuum line, and it looks like nothing's flowing in the fuel line, that is because your carb is already full of gasoline. It doesn't need anymore.
Just so you know, it's always a good idea to get a new spark plug. These engines are 2-strokes, so they go through spark plugs much faster than a 4-stroke (try burning gasoline and a gasoline-oil mixture right next to each other, you'll see the sooty difference).
I'm confident that you don't even need to try the oil in the cylinder method, since you are getting combustion when you spray something in there. And don't worry about all of the oil that gets dumped into the cylinder, it will burn up/lubricate out of there, it'll just smoke like * until it's out.
And yes, welcome to the Honda Spree, possibly one of the pickiest engines in regards to air intakes. Apparently they don't like the intake to be too free, they rather like it restricted....I'm going to test that theory this summer, however.
As for your exhaust being off, where do you live? If you live in Michigan, like I do, the ambient air temperature is around 15F. Since a 2-stroke engine actually brings some exhaust air back into the cylinder in a cycle, that "exhaust air" actually becomes ambient air when you don't have the muffler on. I wonder what the temperature difference between Michigan's wintry outside air and the hot iron and aluminum inside of your combustion chamber is? A lot of times, that difference is enough to crack your block, your piston, and /or your cylinder head. I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just trying to let you know of the dangers of running without an exhaust on a 2-stroke in the middle of winter.
And, onto the last subject. Good, your piston rings are not stuck. When you made new gaskets, did you use sensor-safe silicon RTV? Also, bare in mind that if you didn't use the paper gaskets that are supposed to be installed on the cylinder base, you have officially messed with your port timing, as you have basically "decked" your cylinder by taking some of the height out of it. Now, that will also equate to a smaller piston-cylinder head clearance, meaning more compression, which means more power. But, you have also lowered your exhaust port, which may mean a little bit less power.....I'm no expert on porting though, although that is another project for this summer. And yes, that flimsy little metal gasket is all that goes between the cylinder head and cylinder. If both surfaces are true, the gasket isn't even needed, and that can also raise your compression, as it acts like getting the head milled would. However, I wouldn't recommend running without a base gasket and a head gasket, as your piston will probably hit your cylinder head, with bad results.
On to the carb. Your idle jet is more than likely clogged. It is also possible your bystarter isn't working. How well have you cleaned the carb? Mine took about 7 tries, several carb dips, and a propane blowtorch before she got clean. The spray carb cleaner (Gumout) works well for most of the carb, but I found it didn't even touch the deposits inside of my pilot (idle) jet. I had to resort to dipping it in a carb dip (NOT ACIDIC OR CAUSTIC, or else all that you'll have left if your brass jets, these carbs are aluminum, after all), hitting it with a blowtorch for about 5 seconds, and then dipping it again. Once your pilot jet is clean, you WILL see a pinprick of light coming through it if you shine a flashlight into your slide guide and plug the main jet, all in a dark room. That's how I knew mine was finally clean. These carbs suck to clean, as the holes are all VERY small and clog easily. I left gas in my carb for one month, the dang bike wouldn't start, didn't show any signs of life, so I had to clean it all over again. Once I cleaned it, the bike started up on the first try.
Good luck.
Easy. Your carbeurator is not clean enough. I could just be like some guys on here and say, "Clean your carb, again and again and again and again..." but I won't. First, it sounds like your petcock is working fine. If it flows gas out of the line when you suck on the vacuum, you're fine. The reason that your petcock seems to not flow gas when hooked to the carb is because your needle-valve in your carbeurator is doing its job. It can't let too much gas into the carb, or else it will run VERY rich and overflow. So, when you're sucking on the vacuum line, and it looks like nothing's flowing in the fuel line, that is because your carb is already full of gasoline. It doesn't need anymore.
Just so you know, it's always a good idea to get a new spark plug. These engines are 2-strokes, so they go through spark plugs much faster than a 4-stroke (try burning gasoline and a gasoline-oil mixture right next to each other, you'll see the sooty difference).
I'm confident that you don't even need to try the oil in the cylinder method, since you are getting combustion when you spray something in there. And don't worry about all of the oil that gets dumped into the cylinder, it will burn up/lubricate out of there, it'll just smoke like * until it's out.
And yes, welcome to the Honda Spree, possibly one of the pickiest engines in regards to air intakes. Apparently they don't like the intake to be too free, they rather like it restricted....I'm going to test that theory this summer, however.
As for your exhaust being off, where do you live? If you live in Michigan, like I do, the ambient air temperature is around 15F. Since a 2-stroke engine actually brings some exhaust air back into the cylinder in a cycle, that "exhaust air" actually becomes ambient air when you don't have the muffler on. I wonder what the temperature difference between Michigan's wintry outside air and the hot iron and aluminum inside of your combustion chamber is? A lot of times, that difference is enough to crack your block, your piston, and /or your cylinder head. I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just trying to let you know of the dangers of running without an exhaust on a 2-stroke in the middle of winter.
And, onto the last subject. Good, your piston rings are not stuck. When you made new gaskets, did you use sensor-safe silicon RTV? Also, bare in mind that if you didn't use the paper gaskets that are supposed to be installed on the cylinder base, you have officially messed with your port timing, as you have basically "decked" your cylinder by taking some of the height out of it. Now, that will also equate to a smaller piston-cylinder head clearance, meaning more compression, which means more power. But, you have also lowered your exhaust port, which may mean a little bit less power.....I'm no expert on porting though, although that is another project for this summer. And yes, that flimsy little metal gasket is all that goes between the cylinder head and cylinder. If both surfaces are true, the gasket isn't even needed, and that can also raise your compression, as it acts like getting the head milled would. However, I wouldn't recommend running without a base gasket and a head gasket, as your piston will probably hit your cylinder head, with bad results.
On to the carb. Your idle jet is more than likely clogged. It is also possible your bystarter isn't working. How well have you cleaned the carb? Mine took about 7 tries, several carb dips, and a propane blowtorch before she got clean. The spray carb cleaner (Gumout) works well for most of the carb, but I found it didn't even touch the deposits inside of my pilot (idle) jet. I had to resort to dipping it in a carb dip (NOT ACIDIC OR CAUSTIC, or else all that you'll have left if your brass jets, these carbs are aluminum, after all), hitting it with a blowtorch for about 5 seconds, and then dipping it again. Once your pilot jet is clean, you WILL see a pinprick of light coming through it if you shine a flashlight into your slide guide and plug the main jet, all in a dark room. That's how I knew mine was finally clean. These carbs suck to clean, as the holes are all VERY small and clog easily. I left gas in my carb for one month, the dang bike wouldn't start, didn't show any signs of life, so I had to clean it all over again. Once I cleaned it, the bike started up on the first try.
Good luck.
1986 Honda Spree - Running amazing.....body work still needs to be done, but that's a Spring job.
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Kenny_McCormic
- CBR1000RR
- Posts: 4957
- Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:51 am
- Location: Southern Michigan
[/b]drewkuch wrote:
Not a new spark plug no, I talked to a honda guy, said hey, spark is spark, you shouldn't need a new one...i should have bought it anyways, just didn't. I dont want to spend unwanted money if i dont need to...thats why i'm stuck here right now... WRONG, FLAT OUT * LIE! Spark plugs can appear fine but under compression and fire is different story!
Are these bikes picky about their air intake? I have no filter and no top cover for my airbox...I have ran bikes before in the same situation, just to get them started... INCREDIBLY PICKY
My exhaust isn't plugged, in fact it is completly off. Shouldn't harm it, will just be loud and may run a little rough until i put it back on...should still start in that case... PUT IT BACK, back to that sensitive engine thing.
IS THIS METAL GASKET THE ONLY THING NEEDED THERE? Should replace every time the head leaves.
Thanks for the reply! drew
I am not a mechanic, nor do I play one on TV. Actually my advice is probably worth slightly less than what you pay to view it.
thansk dg soles, i'll work on it tomorrow. I've taken apart that carb 10 times and cleaned it, even took it to honda, (who seems to give me bad advice) and had them clean it.
I'll get a new plug. Makes sense for the 2 stroke to eat more plugs than 4 strokes. I'm new at 2 strokes....first one.
Decking/milling...rookie at this, but me making my own gaskets....that cylinder base gasket, the material was thicker than the original gasket i'm pretty sure. that a bad thing?
so, new plug, complete airbox with filter, and exhaust hooked up. Will do this.
How do i corrected get that carb cleaned for god sakes.
thanks, drew
in 3..2...1...night
I'll get a new plug. Makes sense for the 2 stroke to eat more plugs than 4 strokes. I'm new at 2 strokes....first one.
Decking/milling...rookie at this, but me making my own gaskets....that cylinder base gasket, the material was thicker than the original gasket i'm pretty sure. that a bad thing?
so, new plug, complete airbox with filter, and exhaust hooked up. Will do this.
How do i corrected get that carb cleaned for god sakes.
thanks, drew
in 3..2...1...night
1985 honda spree 49cc
2007 lifan 50
2007 lifan 50
When you clean out the carb, are you taking out the jet and that tube inside? Theres good instuctions in the technical documents section: http://www.hondaspree.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5389
Even if your petcock seems fine, I'd try and clean it. Mine would flow enough fuel to start and idle, but if you gas it my moped would die.
Cleaned the carb 3x, and the petcock + tank 2x and it runs great.
Definately bolt on the exhaust, and buy 2 plugs, one while your trying to get it running, and 1 for when it's running good (or just to have a backup).
Even if your petcock seems fine, I'd try and clean it. Mine would flow enough fuel to start and idle, but if you gas it my moped would die.
Cleaned the carb 3x, and the petcock + tank 2x and it runs great.
Definately bolt on the exhaust, and buy 2 plugs, one while your trying to get it running, and 1 for when it's running good (or just to have a backup).
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circusracer
- Goped
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- Location: Ovid, MI
I havent had the chance to swap them out and do some speed runs. Its cold and snowy, but as soon as that lets up I will. Also, yep the spree intake.dgsoles wrote:Hey circusracer, did the SB50 reeds make quite a bit of difference? Also, are you still using the NQ50 (Spree) intake with them? Just curious, as that is something I want to try this summer.
84,85,86 sprees: Intake mod, drilled pipe, .020" milled 1985 head, dome piston, 2mm raised exhaust port, sb50 reeds, 34mph average.
new plug, cleaned the carb again, the correct way, primed the cylinder with carb cleaner, cleaned the gas tank, cleaned the petcock, new fuel and vacuum lines... still no start...
what's next?
what's next?
Last edited by drewkuch on Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1985 honda spree 49cc
2007 lifan 50
2007 lifan 50
-
Wheelman-111
- Moderator
- Posts: 11325
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:09 pm
- Location: Deepinnaharta, Texas
Compression & Reeds
Greetings:
1. Harbor Freight Tools has a compression tester for under $15. Check before and after a tsp of Honda oil down the plug hole.
2. Remove manifold and check your reed valves. I suspect there you will find a problem. Any gap due to wear or loss of spring action will prevent starting. I make replacements from carbon KEVLAR 0.375mm.
1. Harbor Freight Tools has a compression tester for under $15. Check before and after a tsp of Honda oil down the plug hole.
2. Remove manifold and check your reed valves. I suspect there you will find a problem. Any gap due to wear or loss of spring action will prevent starting. I make replacements from carbon KEVLAR 0.375mm.
Wheelman-111
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH
Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
Flash 9: 2001 Elite SR Contesta 72 ZX Tran, 9:1 Gears, Stock Airbox/Carb/Pipe 58.8 MPH
Punkin: 2010 Vespa/Malossi S78, 61MPH