1986 Spree NQ50 No Power, Carbs Scrubbed Clean

[wernerml]

I inherited two 86 Sprees from my Dad. They each have about 850 miles on them, and have been stored in doors or inside custom canvas bags from when they were new. In fact they still look like they are new. They probably have been run less than 5 miles in the last 5 years. I put in new batteries and fuel and away they went sort of. They start and idle fine. Just purr along like Hondas generally do. Give them some throttle and they sputter. One ran ok (the better one) and the other acts like you turned off the fuel when you open the throttle.

I replaced the vacuum petcock on "the worse one", cleaned the fuel filter and put in new fuel. No joy. I cleaned the carb. No joy. New spark plug, same. Verified spark - OK. Ran about the same with the exhaust removed.

I started swapping parts like carbs, ignition coil, spark plugs, exhaust. One ran ok, the other dies on throttle. Somewhere along the process of swapping parts both scoots started running poorly when advancing the throttle.

I took them both to a "professional". He cleaned both carbs a second time, replaced the spark plugs, "cleared the exhausts", turned some mixture screws, lightened my wallet and declared them better.

Got them home... still two pooches.

I spent many hours reading hondaspree.net looking for the magic answer. Many of the posts start off good, but it seems like the final result is always missing. I guess once someone gets their scoot running, they're too busy to post what finally fixed the problem.

One of the posts reminded me that my Dad had placed some washers under the air box cover screw of "the better one". I had taken those out when I cleaned the carbs the first time. I took the air box cover off and that scoot started running better again!!!! I ended up drilling holes in the cover until it runs well with the cover installed. I've probably got about 20, 3/16" holes in the cover, but at least one scoot runs well. 25 mph on the level with 250 lb load.

I went back to the spree with what seems to have a fuel cut out problem. In the first 10 seconds of reving it up it seems to start to come on with some power, then it gets wimpy. If you hold the throttle more than 50% open for more than 10 seconds it stalls. I got a wash bottle and put in some gasoline (think chemistry lab). Took off the air cleaner cover and removed the filter, started it up on the kick stand and advanced the throttle. As it started to die I squirted some fuel in the intake. With a little practice I can make the scoot run like a demon, if I put just the right amount of fuel in the intake.

This is the point where I cleaned the carb a third time, making sure to clean out the pilot hole behind the main jet emulsion tube. This didn't help.

As I thought this over it occured to me that maybe it was the float bowl that wasn't staying full due to low fuel flow from the tank. I disconnected the fuel line from the petcock and covered the petcock outlet. I took my wash bottle of gasoline and jammed its output nozzle into the fuel line to the carb. I put the wash bottle between my feet on the running board and maintained fuel pressure by squeezing the bottle while I rode. It ran pretty good!! (I played around with the air box cover and I think I'm going to need a little extra breating here once I figure out the fuel.) I don't think I want to maintain fuel pressure by squeezing a bottle between my feet all the time so now I need to figure out where the fuel flow restriction is.

I took out the petcock, this is the new one, and cleaned it and the fuel filter up. No joy. I took the fuel filter and cut off the filter portion turning it into a 1/2" tube. No joy.

I guess I'm finally getting to my questions... Does the petcock have any kind of restriction to fuel flow once the valve is open. Last time I drained the tank it seemed to flow ok. The fuel and vacuum lines are new. The other thing is the fuel inlet at the carb and the inlet needle and float. I know I sprayed lots of carb cleaner through this area (three times) and I've had the inlet needle out and it looks fine. The float is ok. So what is it about the fuel inlet that makes it work ok with a couple PSI of fuel pressure, but not ok with a few inches of fuel head (gravity feed)? Sticky needle??

I'm running out of ideas. Does any one have any other suggestions? The kids are getting tired of sharing a single spree. By the way I used to work for a carburetor manufacturer (Walbro).

Dad of the Spree Twins.

[Bear45-70]

Clean the carb again, you didn't get the small passage for transition to hi-speed clear yet.

[wernerml]

The last time I cleaned the carb, I had a small plastic bristle that I could push into that hole. There are four outlets that connect to that hole: the vent on the air cleaner side; the dip tube on the bottom side into the float bowl; the air mixture screw in the side, and the hole itself. I can spray carb cleaner in each of these holes and have spray come out of the other three.

I will get some piano wire and try again.

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

A well-written post by WernerML describes:

One of the posts reminded me that my Dad had placed some washers under the air box cover screw of "the better one". I had taken those out when I cleaned the carbs the first time. I took the air box cover off and that scoot started running better again!!!!

And then:

Took off the air cleaner cover and removed the filter, started it up on the kick stand and advanced the throttle. As it started to die I squirted some fuel in the intake. With a little practice I can make the scoot run like a demon, if I put just the right amount of fuel in the intake.

I went back and re-re-read the entire post. I think your answer may be in those two paragraph segments.

To verify, I suggest you inspecte the air filters carefully. Start by poking with your finger. If it leaves a "print" for longer than a second or so, the filter's open-cell foam has begun turning into closed-cell foam, which happens over a few years. My theory is that it was growing rich so Dear Old Dad compensated successfully by opening up the airbox a little with those washers. Then even that wasn't enough.

When you removed the filter, you had a mixture that was too lean, which was semi-correctible by pressure-feeding fuel. Discounting the possibility of the many assembly errors lurking when you swapped parts and let your "professional" hack away at the scoots, I believe your main obstacle to good performance is Filter Coagulation. Remedy suggestion: Order two new ones from Honda-san, install, and try to undo everything else done to date. If you do, I'd tape over those airbox holes.

[wernerml]

I have one new filter element that is currently installed in the bad one. I can swap it around and see what happens. Got my piano wire today, but the smallest I could get on short notice is 0.015". We'll see how that works. Vacation next week so I'll be working on the Jet Boat

[Kenny_McCormic]

When cleaning the carbs did you pull out the emulsion tubes and clean them? Check the two intake holes in the airbox lid, they like to plug up. You should not need holes in the lids, I would replace the lid and do things right.

[mgracer]

For cleaning little bitty holes in carbs go to a welding supply shop or Northern Tools and get a tip cleaning tool.
It has multiple fine round files. Mine cost about 10 bucks and has been priceless for cleaning welding tips and Weber carbs.

[Videonut]

agreed about the airfoam flow. I dont have a spree airfilter on my spree so if you want to try something take the airbox inlet tube off and put it on the end of a craftsman paper airfilter (cover your paper filter with masking tape 3/4 of the way up. so you only have 1/3 of the filter being used. it will work great. if this is not working then go to your airbox. I have 2 lids one is perfect and one has 2 holes in the vent area. i will sell ya them if you need them. i have some pics of them too if needed.

Videonut

[Lunytune]

Got my piano wire today, but the smallest I could get on short notice is 0.015"

Guitar strings are much easier to find than piano strings. You gotta know a piano tuner/mechanic for that. On the other hand, most avid guitar players replace their strings every 3 months or so, some more often. As I understand (according to my sons who play) it is the E string that is the desired .013". I have a never ending supply.

[cubdriver]

Got my piano wire today, but the smallest I could get on short notice is 0.015"

Guitar strings are much easier to find than piano strings. You gotta know a piano tuner/mechanic for that. On the other hand, most avid guitar players replace their strings every 3 months or so, some more often. As I understand (according to my sons who play) it is the E string that is the desired .013". I have a never ending supply.

Yoiks! More like every three weeks or one gig whichever comes first!

This was a helpful thread. I just soaked the carb for a week took it all apart, cleaned it all up, and still runs fine until you apply a load, then it dies under throttle advance. It will scream on the kickstand, but act anemic on the ground. Pulled the exhaust as a test, that helped but did not help the neighbors. Sounds like the airbox is my next thing to check.

Thanks!

sj

[Bear45-70]

Got my piano wire today, but the smallest I could get on short notice is 0.015"

Guitar strings are much easier to find than piano strings. You gotta know a piano tuner/mechanic for that. On the other hand, most avid guitar players replace their strings every 3 months or so, some more often. As I understand (according to my sons who play) it is the E string that is the desired .013". I have a never ending supply.

Yoiks! More like every three weeks or one gig whichever comes first!

This was a helpful thread. I just soaked the carb for a week took it all apart, cleaned it all up, and still runs fine until you apply a load, then it dies under throttle advance. It will scream on the kickstand, but act anemic on the ground. Pulled the exhaust as a test, that helped but did not help the neighbors. Sounds like the airbox is my next thing to check.

Thanks!

sj

Turning up high RPM on the kick stand is easy. It requires next to nothing in the way of fuel because there is no load hence no real work involved. When you have a load, or as in my case an overload, to move around it takes a lot of fuel. Just soaking will not necessarily clear the little itty bity passages. You need to squirt either carb cleaner or some other solvent thru them to make sure the passages are clear.

[cubdriver]

Thanks! I did that, but I will do it again. From reading here it seems that cleaning and recleaning and more recleaning is what it takes...

I have better luck with lawn mowers...

sj

[Bear45-70]

Thanks! I did that, but I will do it again. From reading here it seems that cleaning and recleaning and more recleaning is what it takes...

I have better luck with lawn mowers...

sj

Most lawn mowers are a * of a lot bigger in displacement than little 50 cc motors, so everything else is bigger too. My lawn mower has a 20 hp out of 724 cc. Even being a V-twin that's 362 cc per cylinder or 7 times bigger than a 50 cc scoot.

[Lunytune]

Yeah, but Bear, not everybody is challenged to build a Tim Taylor lawnmower.

cubdriver, key is to get the passages clean enough to be able to squirt carb cleaner through them. Then run Seafoam in the tank for a couple of tanks in the initial, and then periodically through the summer, and especially going into the winter and winterizing. I've noticed my Dio is getting a little contrary starting, requiring light throttle, and cold natured. I suspect the passage to my bystarter is trying to plug. I'll try running some Seafoam before I tear into it. I don't mind carb work, but detest pulling plastic.

[cubdriver]

What is interesting is this spree was running GREAT. I am running Seafoam. It just suddenly got a case of the don't wanna go anymores. I blast out the carb again. I have guitar strings out the wazoo so I can poke all the little holes out.

sj