New (to me) Spree. Engine help needed.

[benH]

So, I am used to forum etiquette and so on, and realize there is probably a search feature, but I am new, Hello!, so I am just going to come right out with my questions, and I apologize if they have been addressed in here somewhere before.

I am very familiar with the workings of my old Pacer moped and my honda CL125 motorcycle, especially since everything is exposed and easy to get to. I bought them both in poor shape and now they run great. My GF just 30 min. ago picked up a 1986 Honda Spree that ''runs decent'' according to the ad it was sold from. I helped her get it home, and we were able to start it with the electronic ignition as well as the kickstart. It has some bad little noises coming out of it, and it is awful just taking off, but will pick up at about 15mph and go to 30mph fine. The guy said he had recently run it out of gas so the oil injector or pump or line or whatever this thing has no longer works, and he had put premix in the gas tank. (not something I was excited about) It ran and made it home, smoked a lot the first mile, but shut off a few times going down the road. Was able to kickstart it back to life and get the 6 miles home.

So what Im assuming is:
1. the carb needs a cleaning.
2. something has to be done about the oil injection because the Oil light is ON when it runs
3. it needs a little overhaul.

Now here's the kicker. We wheeled it into the back yard, kicked it over a few times just to see if it would start back up, and the 2nd kick, the kickstart locks up, the starter wont turn the engine over, and I am assuming the engine is now locked up. That is really annoying and surprising. It's a d*** shame because it cost her 300 bucks and she needs a source of transportation that isn't manual shift/clutch, and the thing is in fantastic condition otherwise with all electrical and keys and upholstery and everything in excellent shape, paint is great.

Does anyone have any information to point me in the way of unlocking this thing, and getting it running.

thanks very much, and hi
ben

[dem0nk1d]

pull the exhaust off and look into the exhaust port. look at the piston walls, maybe you melted the rings to the piston? I've done this three times so far, but i have a 1/2 * motor built. =)

[toboggan]

It's definitely not melted piston rings. if it was it more then likely wouldn't run that great, if at all.

You can disconnect the oil light/ level sending unit, and put a plug in the oil injector hole and run premix, which alot of people do just to be sure the piston/ jug get's oiled.

Do a thorough cleaning of the carb, and report back

[benH]

and as for the fact that the piston is seized and the starter does nothing to turn it over...rebuild the top end? take off the exhaust and see if I can move it? I can run premix I suppose and get rid of the whole oil tank and so on (2.5 oz to the gallon I guess?) but I dont think changing that stuff is going to magically loosen up the piston

[dem0nk1d]

I'd say rebuilding the top end should fix it.

[Bear45-70]

First off you can't run the oil injection pump without oil in the system or it will seize. However running out of gas doesn't have squat to do with the oil injection system. So the PO is full of crap one way or the other. Either it ran out of gas and the oil system is fine or it ran out of oil and you need to bleed the oil injection system.

The electronic ignition had nothing to do with the electric start feature. The ignition is self powered when the motor turns over. If the battery is charged up and the starter still doesn't work; then either the start relay or the starter is bad. Check the battery first, it should read 12.6 volts to be fully charged.

As to the rest of the engine. DO A COMPRESSION TEST before you tear anything apart. If it ain't broke it is stupid to tear it apart.

You would have been better off putting the scooter in the truck and riding it 6 miles or whatever home with a questionable oil injection system.

FYI, being a dog up to 12 to 15 mph is normal for a Spree as is 30 mph top speed.

Listening to the "rebuild it"clowns without finding out if is indeed broke is a poor choice at best, besides being expensive. Why do some people insist on dispensing STUPID advice that cost OTHERS money with no foundation? If it still runs 30 mph there is NOTHING wrong with the top end of the motor.

[benH]

so premix oil and gas straight into the gas tank, and eliminate the oil tank and line, and disengage the oil light. rebuild top end, might need a rebuild kit and a ring. clean carb, maybe rebuild.

what's a good ratio for these hondas for the oil to gas mix? thanks for the help

EDIT: i typed this as you typed your response bear dude. the conclusion I came to (and the reason I mentioned the starter) is because the piston has obviously seized. it kicked over fine, and when I hit the starter switch, the engine turned over fine. then suddenly it didnt. kicker wont budge.

and as far as running it out of gas, I dont know anything bout all that but the guy that sold it said when you run it dry of gas somehow the oil pump shuts off and you need to do something to re-engage it. he said he ran premix in the gas tank, and it looked that way since it smoked all the way home, but the cylinder has obviously seized now for some reason. also, it smoked a bit when i turned it off, from underneath the seat, not out the pipe because of a poor oil to gas ration like when it ran home.

I dont have a truck. I have a bmw 318i, a scooter is not getting in or on that thing without a decent roofrack.


***FIRST POST ''Now here's the kicker. We wheeled it into the back yard, kicked it over a few times just to see if it would start back up, and the 2nd kick, the kickstart locks up, the starter wont turn the engine over, and I am assuming the engine is now locked up''

alot of people seem to be missing this part

[dem0nk1d]

benH - "and as for the fact that the piston is seized and the starter does nothing to turn it over"

When my elite 50cc was stock one day thought I ran out of gas, and later found the rings snapped. Now on my two other engine builds, I had the piston rings seize up. With the last engine that seized up, it kicked started one last time to get me another 2 miles closer to home. Make note this is after the engine cooled down.

I'd pull the jug and inspect it, what does he have to loose? Also cleaning out the carb isn't a bad choice either to make sure the carb is up to the game. I ran with the oil injection system blocked off and ran a premixed. I've heard way to many horror stories with the oil injection system failing and causing engine failure.

[benH]

I've heard way to many horror stories with the oil injection system failing and causing engine failure.

I am 99% sure this is what happened.

So, the point of this thread is to decide how to fix my seized engine. demonkid thanks for all the help.

so premix oil and gas straight into the gas tank, and eliminate the oil tank and line, and disengage the oil light. rebuild top end, might need a rebuild kit and a ring. clean carb, maybe rebuild.

does this sound like a good course of action? how difficult are these guys to rebuild top ends on.

and last, what is a solid ratio for oil to gas in the tank?

thanks

[dem0nk1d]

Replacing the Jugs and Pistons are a peace of cake upside down. I'm not to sure what you pre-mix should be. Someone will know that for sure.

"rebuild it"clowns -dem0nk1d. =)

[Bear45-70]

so premix oil and gas straight into the gas tank, and eliminate the oil tank and line, and disengage the oil light. rebuild top end, might need a rebuild kit and a ring. clean carb, maybe rebuild.

what's a good ratio for these hondas for the oil to gas mix? thanks for the help

NO!!!!!! If you want to remove the oil injection system (not a good move on a stock scooter BTW) you have to remove the oil pump on the engine and install a plug where the pump goes. If you eliminate the oil tank, the oil light will not work because it's sender will be gone.

Why are you so HOT on rebuilding the top end when you have no idea if there is anything wrong with it? Just because the motor stops running does not mean you have seized the engine.

Again do a COMPRESSION TEST, before you do anything else. If the compression test is good a proper carb rebuild would be your first order of business.

An oil injection system will normally run between 150 to 1 at idle to 50 to 1 at WOT. Most premix recommendations for air cooled 2 stroke engines is 32 to 1 for racing and 50 to 1 for street use stock motor. You would still be better ff bleeding the oil injection system or at least checking it to see if it is working, rather that going premix, which your GF is not gonna like doing. Putting gas it the tank is something girls will do, mixing oil is not something they will do. It is one of the reason Honda made oil injection a standard feature was to attract the female riders.

You need to find out why the kick start is locked up. Don't assume the engine is seized. It could be but it may not be as I don't thinke I ever saw an engine break and seize on the kick starter.

[Bear45-70]

Replacing the Jugs and Pistons are a peace of cake upside down. I'm not to sure what you pre-mix should be. Someone will know that for sure.

"rebuild it"clowns -dem0nk1d. =)

He edited the post and added that, but it still isn't likely that the motor seized while using the kick starter since you have to get things hot enough to melt the pistion to seize the engine and there is no way on earth there is that much heat while starting.

And yes you are still a "rebuild it" clown as you have no proof the motor is seize and if it is, it is caused by the top end. Your troubling shoot skills aren't just bad, they are non-exisitant! Go waste you own money somewhere else.

[benH]

ok


so


this is very easy to explain.

THE ENGINE IS SEIZED
THE BIKE RAN, THEN SEIZED
THE BIKE DOES NOT RUN
THIS HAPPENED RIGHT AFTER IT RAN 6 MILES DOWN THE ROAD
I cannot emphasize this any more. it obviously over heated, because the pump was faulty and it didnt get any oil and the guy did a shoddy job of premixing. the bike turned over and started when I hit the ignition button, and when I could kick it over. now the kickstart is frozen, and the ignition just makes a low clicking noise, and the engine does not turn over.

therefore, I assume a top end rebuild is in order
in addition and for kicks, I will clean the carb
also, something needs to be done about the oil injection, because it does not currently work. if this means bleed it then I will. if this means eliminate the oil tank and plug up the hole where the pump was, then I will do that. apparently this is a common problem. perhaps replace the pump if it broke? the oil light came on, the engine seized. the guy said he made premix gas for it since it wasnt running correctly, he obviously did a poor job of it.

if worse comes to worse I will get a piston and rings and top end (jug apparently)and maybe new oil pump on ebay. probably can be done for less than a hundred bucks and a little patience with some tools. its well worth it to me.

[Bear45-70]

ok


so


this is very easy to explain.

THE ENGINE IS SEIZED
THE BIKE RAN, THEN SEIZED
THE BIKE DOES NOT RUN
THIS HAPPENED RIGHT AFTER IT RAN 6 MILES DOWN THE ROAD
I cannot emphasize this any more

therefore, I assume a top end rebuild is in order
in addition and for kicks, I will clean the carb
also, something needs to be done about the oil injection, because it does not currently work. if this means bleed it then I will. if this means eliminate the oil tank and plug up the hole where the pump was, then I will do that. apparently this is a common problem. perhaps replace the pump if it broke? the oil light came on, the engine seized. the guy said he made [remix gas for it since it wasnt running correctly, he obviously did a poor job of it.

You ASSUME but you don't know until you find out why the starter is jammed. You are clueless about what a scooter is about. Why don't you go back to a dirt bike forum with the other nitwits. I'm done with moronic assumtion making people and their assumed problems.

[benH]

ok


so


this is very easy to explain.

THE ENGINE IS SEIZED
THE BIKE RAN, THEN SEIZED
THE BIKE DOES NOT RUN
THIS HAPPENED RIGHT AFTER IT RAN 6 MILES DOWN THE ROAD
I cannot emphasize this any more

therefore, I assume a top end rebuild is in order
in addition and for kicks, I will clean the carb
also, something needs to be done about the oil injection, because it does not currently work. if this means bleed it then I will. if this means eliminate the oil tank and plug up the hole where the pump was, then I will do that. apparently this is a common problem. perhaps replace the pump if it broke? the oil light came on, the engine seized. the guy said he made [remix gas for it since it wasnt running correctly, he obviously did a poor job of it.

You ASSUME but you don't know until you find out why the starter is jammed. You are clueless about what a scooter is about. Why don't you go back to a dirt bike forum with the other nitwits. I'm done with moronic assumtion making people and their assumed problems.

read. if the kicker is frozen and the cylinder wont move, its frozen. if I can kick it over one minute and the next it is smoking out the underside of the seat from being too hot and then the kicker freezes and the engine wont turn over and the oil light is on and it's a known fact the oil doesn't get to the engine correctly its frozen. when I confirm this and prove you wrong by fixing it tomorrow I will let you know. I could care less about the condition of the starter. the starter is simply a second confirmation. I own things without any starter in them at all, and low and behold, they can start! by kicking it. if something cant kick over then there is a problem. I dont own a dirtbike. engines are engines, being a scooter doesn't change the fact that it is a gas engine, they are all susceptible to the same problems. im going to kindly ask you to stop contributing, you are far from being any help whatsoever.

and the only other forum i belong to that is motorbike related is mopedarmy, and they rule.