Drive belt breaking slider guides? (moved 94-01 belt topic)

[Kevinstonge]

Not sure what belt you actually have tested, but the part number I'm finding for an 01 sa50 is 23100-GG2-751. And considering many of us have used the malossi belt with zero issues (especially no issues with broken ramp slides ), I believe your broken slide issues the are coming from somewhere else within your engine/trans. And yes Ive read you changed everything back to stock(about 6 times now:/)

And to clarify what are you actually trying to say?? Because I think a lot of us are still confused.

We shouldn't trust the malossi belt because "they" say it's equivilent to 23100-gg2-7500??

IMO, Get yourself a 23100-gg2-751 and re test.

ALSO, where are your slides wearing/breaking? Please take better pictures if you can of the work/broken slides.

[bajack]

i have no idea really, ive put a very descriptive long drawn out big set of tests ive done. and then everyones like huh. the same people going huh, are the same people who have these items in surplus and sell them to everybody else.

since i dont have a new belt, im going to wait. and im theorizing why the belt gave me the problems it did.

your sayign it yourself what am i saying you said you guys have no problems but i didnt say that. said i didnt, wrote my test and shown pictures. not sure what you mean.

thats not what im saying. im sayign my belt this one that part number up there, wrote many times here, x x 7500, has done this.

nothing seems wrong with my cvt. i went out last night and tightened down with a ratchet, the variator and boss and front kick ramp, stock together, to make sure it has no play and its good. and it fits right on there. they go together. no play.

so my front cvt once torqued to spec shouldnt give me no problem. i went over the rear driven pulley, it also seems fine. i took the halves apart, and they all seem good. im goign to relube them and put it back together.

alright since initial checkup seems good. lets pretend that belt i got works. so im just trying to figure out what in the * went wrong with it. i try to go over everythign to figure out why it isnt working, cause, it isnt working. lets pretend ive never read teh belt number yet.

lets look for things that could be variables since lets pretend this belt isn't the problem.

the deal with the belt and how i rule it or not rule it out as a variable. it is a honda part number. i got it. it is the replacement belt, listed for a honda dio sp.

searches on the internet for a honda dio sp belt, give me this part number, and also, list that malossi belt as a replacement for it. That's all I'm saying.

You would think the belt would react the same if its a suggested replacement for the same bike as it would on the original, on another.

Here's some other facts that I don't know, the dimensions of this honda bando belt. So lets leave it at that. We also have, what you say about it, no problems it works good. Thats what we have.
lets move on.

Still let me rule out a few variables maybe. slide guides brands? think theres a difference between stock and polini? they add to pile up measurement, if you measure how much you pile up, stack up, UP, on the crankshaft arm. they add, up? or are they the same dimension? in that direction? im talking, like arm, OUT. up, towards the nut. the direction the belt moves in.

the belts only touching point on the ramp is, its angle and the ramps angle.

We dont' know if thats performance, we dont know nothing about it. its not listed down as for sa50. there are no dimensions of the x x 7500 belt honda bando that i've got. all i can say is after 100 or so miles, it measures, just quick measurements, 15.1mm maybe.. wide, and i think the angles, 32 degrees, with it lined up along another 30 degree angled belt, it seems to sit lop sided. 2 30 degree angled belts seems to line straight up, htey seem like to flat belt when theyre held up side down to each other. as in, they both lay flat. even with an X axis. what i mean by performance, is its not listed as an aftermarket belt for the sa50. performance or whatever, you don't know. You say thats performance, or whatever. Ive never heard of it, and Ive never seen it. So its just a variable right now at this POINT. That belt is not got listed for applications the honda elite sa50. I have the x x 7500 belt, not a part for the Honda Elite sa50 SR 94+. which is exactly why I posted it in that section for.

There are we more clear? clear as mud? the belt isnt the belt that is the part number for the Honda Elite listed by honda powersports.

That malossi is listed for the same bike that this belt, x x 7500, is made for.

So we have a confirmation with part numbers. We don't have Dimensions or the measurements, of the HOnda Bando belt.

anyway. .. so my variables left over for the cvt problem im having, besides takign the belt out of the equation, in case, my future test doenst work when i get the gates elite sa50 belt in, and i keep having the sliders break.
.. really are none. i cant think of any at this point.

i let that x x 7500 belt break in to where its got play. thought that could of took care of it. but a 10 mile trip down the road, led to more slide damage. it almost seems, it does so much damage. like itll do so much damage, then maybe not go any further.

well thats about all i got right now Ill add later if i think of it.

[bajack]

and no i cant get better quality pictures. Just look at them. the black slide, thats chinese ones. both sides are like new looking. no gouge marks. that blue one, thats the rear side of the slide, and you can see the little shiny line mark. and its dug in. thats the dig mark, think its like the second set i swapped in. thats the damage it does.
the black chinese one was from using, the old variator, which ive reused now though, and included it in my checking, of this cvt setup, whatever. Im sure its something, stupid like that belt.

and that black chinese slide is also from the old belt, from before i replaced, kind of around the same time, the belt and the variator. just broke the old variator too around this same point. thats the deal. the thing. have 2 things but ive retested them out, to throw out variables. and found my cvt setup, is still, doing the slide guide digging. i ran my whole other cvt before my variator went out and the new belt i got, for around 3000 miles. and never even bothered replaceing the black slides but once. when i did i had no idea which where new and which where old. i jsut took some less, worn ones and put in it. the whole bag of slides, i had took all the ones i got and dumped them in one bag.

yu couldnt look at them though and go these are bad lets throw them out and these are new lets keep them. lets use them.

thats why i bought new slides.

what happenned to my old variator? practice rollers. and 30 miles. they disetegrated.

[LMH]

Ancient voodoo is against you.

[patthesoundguy]

I have sliders on one of my Hondas that has 3700 miles on it and ive run a couple different belts than stock on it and no strange wear like you claim to have. The pics are way too blurry to see any detail. And from what I can see the only groove I can see is the grove thats supposed to be there. Now bajack I have to say that I dont really understand what you have said even though you Have gone through the trouble to type so much out. Ya gotta keep it simple, not that we are dumb and won't understand you just have to much information that just clouds the picture. I have tested many belts on one of my scooters of various lengths and widths with no destructive effects. All that happens is the variator changes gear ratios differently ie faster than stock shifting up from the lack of tension against the driven pulley with a slightly longer belt. There is nothing that a malossi belt can do to cause the sliders to fail.

[bajack]

what is strange to me then is that these grooves appear within 15 miles. ive wrote this. what is strange about it, is i had, as in threw out, a bag of slide guides.

Ok, now why would these plastic guides take a ditch being dug in them? maybe the picture isnt clear enough, but if you see the rest of that blue and see how fine it is, then that ditch being dug. that happenned in 15 miles.

and you can see that black slide, its stock oem chinese scooter stuff. and it reminds me of exactly my guides with 1000's of miles on them. you can see no weird marks on them

why you don't get that i dont get. it wouldnt matter if the pictures where clear. LOOk at the black one and LOOK at the blue one. the black one shows no signs, OF DITCHES. the blue one DOES.
the difference between these two.

wearing: blue has about 15 miles on it, that ditch is about a mm or so deep.

the black one. has 1000's of miles on it. show no signs of stress.

[bajack]

Ancient voodoo is against you.

probably just a x-x-7500 part number.

[bajack]

I have sliders on one of my Hondas that has 3700 miles on it and ive run a couple different belts than stock on it and no strange wear like you claim to have. The pics are way too blurry to see any detail. And from what I can see the only groove I can see is the grove thats supposed to be there. Now bajack I have to say that I dont really understand what you have said even though you Have gone through the trouble to type so much out. Ya gotta keep it simple, not that we are dumb and won't understand you just have to much information that just clouds the picture. I have tested many belts on one of my scooters of various lengths and widths with no destructive effects. All that happens is the variator changes gear ratios differently ie faster than stock shifting up from the lack of tension against the driven pulley with a slightly longer belt. There is nothing that a malossi belt can do to cause the sliders to fail.

and.. their plastic. why should they show signs of stress? think about how the variator cvt works.

id go on here but then youd never understand it.

they make the cvt to work just as as much as possible, a regular car belt design.

I wrote this up there, the only places the belts and ramps touch are on the angles. the V's of the belt, and the angles of the ramp.

real quick ms paint picture of normal touch and this belt if it is 32 degrees angled touching.

ok so think of it like this when there right on top of each other when their angles match, its like pushing, straight down. so it pretty much stays straight and has no tension on it. tahst why there only protected and have for the piece there to protect this, is a plastic slide guide. if its takeing pressures that are digging ditches into it, I know it just won't last. not over 200 miles. maybe 300 on the stock setup. at the most.

these slide guides take way more than that amount of miles on htem. I dont see videos of people complaining looking for a better way.

This is why im answering these questions. IF you dont understand what Im doing well, here. here you go.

if people where changing these slide guides out every 300 miles and that on teh stock variator, theyd be complaining or complaints of urr hey what in the *, is there somethign i can do?

300 miles? pssh i can do that in one day. who wants to daily be changing out these plastic things?

no they take thousands and thousands of miles.

[mousewheels]

bajack - your pic of the guides appears to show the mating face of the ramp plate is damaged.

bajacks_ramp_plate.JPG (20.63 KiB) Viewed 6597 times

-- Below is not proven from hard *scooter* failures. I'd dig into this given the initial ramp plate damage. Might be un-related <shrug> yet IMHO worth knowing the cause.

1) Check the pulley width (with no belt present) variation over a rev. If there is a ramp plate wobble, then the belt acting as a wedge may force movement between the ramp plate/sliders for each rev of the engine.
2) Get back to a golden ramp plate
3) Determine *what* damaged your ramp plate.

At 8-10k rpm, you are within 1/2 of the low end frequency plastic ultrasonic welders use to melt/bond plastic, so short stoke, rapid repetitions *might* cause heating to facilitate guide failures.

[bajack]

the drive boss is new. 3000 miles its got on it. i bought it. new in package. ive got like 5 ramp plates. this damage seen on the back, i noticed that. i dont understand the pulley width? its new. that would be pressure damage. seems itd be too long, and no its new. how did it grow?

im not understanding what your saying could of caused the damage.

that ramp plate, the one in that picture, looks the worst. it was rode the most. its the one ive used the most. i noticed on teh back of most of my ramp plates it seems like this, but here, lately it seems worse. ever since..... this new belt.

your 1) seems to be fixed, if i do a 2). so i done a 2). i changed that ramp plate out. with another one sitting around here. and i used the stock ramp plate which wasnt used much by me. it did seem it was getting damaged more. this is damage from that, i think.

doesnt seem anything else is making the daamge and you didnt say what it was, and i cant find nothing to look at.
from what i think, it's this that caused it. this, as in. this same problem as of now. that im trying to go back to the stock parts to check on. ive re stockified everything so far, and ran into this belt. it matches that other suggested belt tahts why i posted it there. why i posted this, there. in suggested applications. so i was wondering why i was having the problem.

but im going to get the stock belt, some of the ramp plates i havent used with this yet. and usually all my ramp plates, get this. its from sitting pressed against the crankshaft arm. the nut gets torqued down, 45ft /lbs or something. i had started making it also a thing to use the ratchet, and a glove and tighten it down until it just needed torqued, then using an impact wrench, hitting it around 8 times. or so.

just to torque it on. then when id use this same impact wrench, the 160ft/lbs harbor freight model, with my car on and its the cigarette lighter one, id wack it on with 6-8 hits car running. and when i went to take it off, the car wasnt running, and it could take, 2-6 hits to knock it off. ive ran bigger same type of impact wrenches that would take 10 good hits to knock it off. and never seen, this much damage, to the ramp plate on the back, and never, had any cvt problems. unless from being old. such as the belt breaking. which hasnt happenned, ive just swapped belts. this is the 4th belt ive ever put on. and the only one ever had a problem with anything after putting it on. anything that doesnt let me just ride it down the road.

thats the most damage i have seen a ramp plate too. i switched my ramp plate after that and same problem, id get. the plastic slide guides would get dug into.

i dont think the ramp plates are destroyed. just ate into some. yea and i didnt like it either, cause theyre perfectly good.

so when the belt comes in, ill put it on, with fresh chinese guide slides, and a ramp plate thats came off a working bike. that hasnt been in this. with fresh lubed driven pulley. I'll see. and see if itll work.

[bajack]

i think when the belt is angled wrong on teh pulley and around it halfway, and the variator spins around, theres a little play and its pushing the part of the pulley back that the belts going around on, and pushing it back against the crankshaft arm there. and pushing back agasint the slider guides, breakign them and the ramp plate leaving that scoring mark. i drew a picture, but you get it. same thing just where the belt is riding on the variator its getting its slack from the part with no belt wrapped around it, and pushing back on teh variator, crooked, with the little bit of play in the drive boss, variator, and ramp plate and crank arm. since the ramp plates not very thick, it can sort of wobble, just a little and is pushed back, and scoring the back of the ramp plate, and pushing the variator into the ramp plate, back, and digging into the slides.

from the belt. not sure on belt dimensions. but compared sitting side by side with a 30 degree angled belt seems to sit angled to it.

you gotta understand how it works, to understand how it would tear up.

[LMH]

Just try swapping ramps. Rule it out if nothing. Voodoo and the part number may be related.

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

Mouse's amazing eye. If the ramp plate wobbles, the in-and-out movement chews up the plastic inserts. Also Forum be advised blue Polini inserts fit poorly in any other brand of ramp plate, and vise-versa.

[bajack]

there is no wobbling. i pretty much went over my cvt and checked for that.

did notice damage on the crank arm but its a little ahead of the ramp plates spot where it sits on teh crankshaft. but not where that damage is coming from.

again its being pushed back the variator, by the angle of the belt, by using the slack from the tolerances in all these places your bringing up graphite9, and making these marks ive seen.

but i guess ill see. when a belt comes in. its probably that, im not even worried about it.

but youguys can come up with ideas what to do with a bike where hondas cvt wont work on it. like, shove it off a cliff to show it better. or, whatever else.

everythings replaced. nothings messed up. i have tried 3 ramp plates. eeach time with new slide guides.

i went out and checked the sturdiness of this front drive pulley. the variator is totally movable. it doesnt even need installed. just needs to slide up and down on the boss. too bad my cameras batteries died. make a little video of that. but i assembled it and theres no wobbling anywhere. and it rotates smooth. and fine and isnt broken anywhere. just some weird problem. only non stock part i seen was that belt part number.

[bajack]

Any way you slice it, it's not your belt. It's not your clutch, and it's not your variator. You have the following components that can contribute to this.

Crank
Boss
Variator
Drive face.

It's whatever you haven't replaced. It's not the belt. I've never seen an off-true variator. It's your drive face, or your boss. Or, you could possibly have uneven roller weights.

what exactly about them is accounting for these damages then? cause i cant figure out what to look at anyway.

im attributing it to and already explained it in my reponse to mousewheels and said, i didnt think i had to makea picture to show what im talking about here, to explain it. The slight tolerances.

these thigns dont screw together. yoru looking at a flat deck of cards. sitting on something taht spins to the side of them. there not screwed together. its not everything spinning to the side. its these thigns are all clamped on to the crankshaft arm, with 45ft/lbs of torque on the crankshaft nut.