Elite 50 (SE50P) locked up, starter???

[nightcruiser]

Hello,
Years ago when I bought my house I got a 1987 Honda Elite 50 (SE50P) scooter with the purchase. It was not running, at the time I tried to start it, dead, tried to kick start it and it seemed like the motor was frozen or something so I pushed it in a corned and forgot about it.
I have been cleaning out the garage and have some time to mess with this thing now so I pulled it out and got another look at it. I pulled the spark plug and I can kick the motor and get it to turn. The relay just clicks when I hit the start button. (connected to a good car battery) I put the plug back in and kicked it a few times, it turned over a few times and then locked up again. Pulled the plug and got it to turn again. Continuing to kick it with the plug out I eventually got it to jam up with the plug removed. I wasnt sure if the plug was wrong and causing interference, or there was something jamming in the head/crank case, I am thinking it is probably the electric strarter mechanism jamming the kick start????
Any advise or guidance before I rip into this thing would be grately appreciated....

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

Depending on how long it sat, and if it ever sat in water...

Just start by pulling the engine from the frame. That sounds radical, but eventually gets to be a 20-minute job and you don't have to wrench your back to wrench your scooter.

Removing the belt cover may allow you to surmise a lot. Check the other end of the crank, too. That cast-iron flywheel can corrode and swell badly enough to get stuck to its surroundings.

It'll need some dismantlage and perhaps some parts, but it's pretty easy to work on for most anyone who's spun a socket. Or a Rock and Stick, in my case...

That's a Coveted and attractive scooter ya got there. Welcome.

[ChrisH821]

It definitely sounds like something mechanically wrong... Take Wheelman's advice and do some exploratory surgery on it. For what its worth, when I got me spree the crank/flywheel woodruff key was missing and the nut holding the flywheel came loose and caused what felt like a locked up engine. A $3 part fixed me up.

Whereabouts in the midwest are you?

[Mystic]

+2 on Wheelmans suggestion. It could be as simple as a worn snapring on the kickstart shaft. If the kickstart binds at all it will seem like the engine is locked up. if nothing else take the fan cover off. turn the flywheel to see if the crankshaft will spin, if it does so freely then you have a binding kickstart mechanism

[nightcruiser]

Thanks for the info.
The engine is definately not "seized" by rust or anything like that, cause I did get it to turn over quite a few times while kicking it.
I guess I am gonna pull the belt cover and have a look in there, seems funny that the electric strarter wont turn and the kick starter also locks up after a kick or two, but I guess maybe the starter died and the kid kicked the * out of it until he caused a problem with the kick start too...
I almost put this thing out with the garbage a few times over the years, figured it was too far gone or would need to much $$ in parts to fix up. I am going to at least have a go at fixing it before I do that, maybe it will be something simple that I can fix without too much expense...
Thanks again for all of your input.

PS does anyone have a service manual for this bike (or just the motor), or at least an exploded view of all the motor parts? So farI only have the side cover off from the side with the kickstarter, looking around in there I can't even find where the starter is located? I wanted to at least give it a few raps with a hammer to see if I could get it to turn before I rip it appart further...

[swimmingfree]

go to maim page and look under
Honda Service and Owners Manuals
it will be there and down load it..
swimmingfree

[Mystic]

the starter bendix/pinion gear maybe rusty as well take it out and oil it really good and clean the belt dust outta the "teeth" also do the same for the gears in the starter cover but it doesnt really need any oil or grease, maybe a pea sized amount of engine grease under the castle gear where it sits in its bushing. the important part is making sure the belt grime is cleaned from the half moon gear and castle gears teeth so it doesnt bind and check the state of the snap ring between the kick lever and engine cover there is a notch on the shaft it sits in so the shaft cannot push in which would cause the large spring to bind

[nightcruiser]

the starter bendix/pinion gear maybe rusty as well take it out and oil it really good and clean the belt dust outta the "teeth" also do the same for the gears in the starter cover but it doesnt really need any oil or grease, maybe a pea sized amount of engine grease under the castle gear where it sits in its bushing. the important part is making sure the belt grime is cleaned from the half moon gear and castle gears teeth so it doesnt bind and check the state of the snap ring between the kick lever and engine cover there is a notch on the shaft it sits in so the shaft cannot push in which would cause the large spring to bind

Thank you so much for your input, I am about to go rip it appart now, so your timing was excellent. Thanks also to everyone else who was so kind to respond to me as well.

I just got the service manual downloaded and a LOT of questions answered! I have never owned a scooter before so I was clueless about a lot of this. I recently put a china 2-stroke motor on my mountain bike and had loads of fun with that, which is what renewed my interest in working on this scooter. I have the title and key but no manual for this scooter, so I almost put pre-mix gas into the tank knowing it was a 2-stroke, until I found the oil tank under the seat and said to myself "hmmm?". I see a lot of oil has leaked out on the motor under the oil tank, though there was still quite a bit of oil in the tank. I am guessing if I get it turning over my next stop will have to be that oil pump. I guess maybe all that leaked oil kept stuff from rusting over the years! LOL You guys can probably look forward to lots of posting from me about this project in the future...

[swimmingfree]

just keep this post we are watching for you here ..

[nightcruiser]

Is there any trick to getting the left crankcase cover off? I pulled the kicktstart lever and all the bolts, the cover still wont budge? The snap ring on the kickstart shaft can stay on until after the crankcase cover is pulled, right? I tapped the case a bit with a rubber mallet, no movement, I didnt want to pry.....

[swimmingfree]

tap a fue times dose it sound loss or soled ..if soled you did not get all the bolts out ..the kick stater dose not come off that way .. you have to get the cover off so leve it alone for now..
swimmingfree

[Mystic]

there are at least 2 bushings in the crancase that go into the side cover sometimes these get rusty and the gasket in between there turns to glue hahha you might try a paint scrapper or a thin bladed knife or a flathead screw driver to loosen the cover from the engine but be gentle and take your time. find the biggest gap and work from there till you get it off and no dont take the snap ring off till you get the cover off at least, you may not have to go that far may just need cleaned up inside

[Wheelman-111]

Greetings:

You removed the kickstarter lever?! Dude, that's the "Handle".

Unlike most scooters, the kicker is connected only to the cover - it comes off with the cover, so I'm only half-kidding. If you remove the tire, you'll see a couple of places where you can push with a punch or drift and tap-tap-tap the cover loose. The gasket turns to Epoxy over time, so be patient.

[nightcruiser]

I pulled all the bolts (9) and it is SOLID! Pounded all over with a rubber mallet and it doesn't seem to move at all. I guess it must be those rusted bushings and everything gummed up that has it seized together. I hate to pry on it but I guess thats what I will have to do. If anyone has any tips where to pry or pound...

[martynkim]

Check out page 3 on this thread. This is when I was a noob. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12723