Piston issue + lean issue for the experts

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mmeadows
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Piston issue + lean issue for the experts

Post by mmeadows »

The Bike: 1984 aero with an 87 aero engine installed

The Engine: has a stock head, a ruckus variator, Leo Vince pipe , uni filter (taped up 80% to avoid being too lean) a 98 jet ( avoid being lean) and a Honda metro rear wheel. Honda recommended # 8 plug

The Last Ride: I was about 26 miles into a hilly trip when the problem happened

The Problem: I have melted a hole in the center of my piston with some of the piston also being melted at the exhaust port. My cylinder wall is complexly fine, not a single scratch.

From what my Google searches gather if your cylinder wall is not scratched you are not running lean. I also think that an 80% taped up uni filter and a 98 jet would indicate I wasnÔÇÖt lean. Bike does get warm after wot (400-420) but cools down very fast

My questions: 1. what would cause this? 2. Can I just buy a new cylinder put it in and be running?


Also would you guys generally agree with this statement below
Normally a hole in the center of the piston, is indicating the ignition timing to high, because it will spark the plug to early & then there is a big ball of burning fuel right in the middle & it melts the piston.

With lean conditions, it will cause the fuel to burn up to quick & heat the piston to much, make it swell up faster & then seize to the cylinder walls.

If the octane of gas being used, is to low for the amount of compression the engine has, it will normally cause the piston to melt away on the top edge at the exhaust port area, because so hot of a flame being blown out the exhaust port.

ill post pictures this afternoon
Last edited by mmeadows on Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
84 Aero af05e Ruckus variator, rear metro wheel, Leovince pipe ( work in process... porting , nh80 reeds intake carb)
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fastplastic
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Re: Piston issue for the experts

Post by fastplastic »

if your that warm up jet and with the filter untaped or go with stock air box..... light hone and a new piston you'll be up and running....
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Re: Piston issue for the experts

Post by mmeadows »

doesn't taping up the uni filter give the "fuel mix" less air thus more rich?
why un-tape?

im under the assumption that 400 is normal for continuous miles of WOT
84 Aero af05e Ruckus variator, rear metro wheel, Leovince pipe ( work in process... porting , nh80 reeds intake carb)
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fastplastic
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Re: Piston issue for the experts

Post by fastplastic »

Tape is not a proper method and most ppl like to run around 325 350
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Re: Piston issue for the experts

Post by mmeadows »

some other forms, mainly racing, have similar problems and state wrong octane or bad timing as the issue. anyone think this is possible?

is there anyway this happened in an engine that was not running lean? the bottom of my piston is not black and my cylinder wall is not scratched.
84 Aero af05e Ruckus variator, rear metro wheel, Leovince pipe ( work in process... porting , nh80 reeds intake carb)
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Re: Piston issue for the experts

Post by mmeadows »

fastplastic wrote:Tape is not a proper method and most ppl like to run around 325 350
so what would you recommend as far as jetting on a non taped uni filter? i think i have up to a 112 jet.

i know some people stay in those low temps but im not sure if those people also do 3+ miles of wide open throttle.

its been alleged that some people on this form have hit 500 with no issues.

im super frustrated at this point and i would think a 98 would be enough
http://www.hondaspree.net/phpBB3/viewto ... =3&t=22243
84 Aero af05e Ruckus variator, rear metro wheel, Leovince pipe ( work in process... porting , nh80 reeds intake carb)
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Wheelman-111
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Re: Piston issue for the experts

Post by Wheelman-111 »

Greetings:

Lean or not, it got too hot. At a certain temp, pre-ignition leads to detonation and burns the hole in seconds. The bulk of the damage happens on the Downhills. Ignition timing has nothing to do with it when your engine Diesels and spark is redundant. Your Google search probably pertained to 4-Strokes with adjustable timing.

Higher fuel octane could have saved it, but AvGas is a pain and costly.
You also can't easily improve your cooling system.

That leaves jetting. Specifically the Pilot jet, which is also difficult to enlarge. An Amal-Arreche-for-Honda 17.5 or 19 from scooter-Center.com offers replaceable Pilots. The tiny PA Pilot leaves the engine both hot and dry with throttle closed. A recipe for instant overheat, even if you run a 112. Consider a better carb.
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Most of my money is spent on scooterparts. The rest is just wasted.
"ISO": '03 Vespa ET4 Malossi187 74MPH
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Re: Piston issue for the experts

Post by fastplastic »

Don't rule out an air leak
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Re: Piston issue for the experts

Post by mmeadows »

that's really sad news wheelman. basically a uni filter wont ever work if you have a stock carb and are hard on your scooter.
i guess that means all the bikes with big bore kits and uni filters and stock air boxes are waiting to fail too? :(
whats the difference in the arreche 17.5 from the 19?

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/produ ... r_ae517544

will these carbs hook right up to my throttle cable and can i put my honda bystarter right in?
Last edited by mmeadows on Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
84 Aero af05e Ruckus variator, rear metro wheel, Leovince pipe ( work in process... porting , nh80 reeds intake carb)
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Re: Piston issue for the experts

Post by mmeadows »

how can you test for an air leak?
84 Aero af05e Ruckus variator, rear metro wheel, Leovince pipe ( work in process... porting , nh80 reeds intake carb)
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Re: Piston issue for the experts

Post by Trafficjamz »

fastplastic wrote: light hone and a new piston you'll be up and running....
after you open the case and flush all of the old piston bits out of the bearings. :smile:
new best 1/8th mile time 9.647 seconds @67.155 mph 310lbs total weight
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Re: Piston issue for the experts

Post by mmeadows »

Trafficjamz wrote:
fastplastic wrote: light hone and a new piston you'll be up and running....
after you open the case and flush all of the old piston bits out of the bearings. :smile:

tell me more traffic. what is my risk of not doing this?

the engine was turning over (cylinder moving) quite a bit when the accident happened not to mention me trying to kick it over once or twice. so is the damage already done?
84 Aero af05e Ruckus variator, rear metro wheel, Leovince pipe ( work in process... porting , nh80 reeds intake carb)
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Re: Piston issue for the experts

Post by Trafficjamz »

I doubt any damage was done. But you must clean out all the aluminum bits out of the bottom of your case and bearings.

The only way to do that is to split the case.
new best 1/8th mile time 9.647 seconds @67.155 mph 310lbs total weight
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Re: Piston issue for the experts

Post by mmeadows »

bump
1. how can i test for an air leak?
2 performance and reliability difference with a arreche 17.5 vs 19
84 Aero af05e Ruckus variator, rear metro wheel, Leovince pipe ( work in process... porting , nh80 reeds intake carb)
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Re: Piston issue + lean issue for the experts

Post by mmeadows »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKXWWVyE ... e=youtu.be

here is a youtube video of my bike and its issues . pictures take too long, sorry i didnt post sooner
84 Aero af05e Ruckus variator, rear metro wheel, Leovince pipe ( work in process... porting , nh80 reeds intake carb)
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