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Keeping Spree Elite Aero 50cc and Gyro Alive!
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 7:47 pm 
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Did you check exciter coil voltage output ahead of the CDI?


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 7:56 pm 
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Yes, both the primary and secondary coils were producing voltage. I will do more testing and update this post later this evening.

Jeremy

UPDATE: Replaced the Ground lead to the starter (It alone was giving 28 Ohms of resistence) New wire now is 0 Ohms. I also tested the Power lead (+) to the starter relay and the Starter power (Red/Whitestripe) they both were showing high levels of resistance. Replaced both of them and they are at 0 resistance now. The starter now spins with out hanging up like it use to do with the bad wiring (with old wiring it sometimes did not engage, as if the battery was bad). It now engages every time and quickly and turns 2 times stronger.

Tested the alternator both outputs and they are producing nearly 0.5-1.5 volts with just the starter spinning. That should be more than adequate. Since the Alternator only is uses to charge the battery and run the accesories. The pulse generator is producing nearly 3 volts so that would be enough to signal the CDI to send the charge to the coil.

I sent my CDI and Coil to Richardson in freeport, he was going to test on a working spree and if they were bad, sell me used parts. The local Honda dealership does not test CDIs and does not have a coil tester, they did test both rectifiers I had and said they tested as if new, so those are perfect.

Now that the grounds are fixed, if I get a good test on one of the CDIs and this thing doesn't spark, you will see it dismantled on eBay.

Jeremy


Last edited by ferchja on Wed May 25, 2005 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 10:02 am 
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Goped
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I suggest you disconnect the CDI from the electical connector block and test the the Black/Red wire voltage when spinning over the engine. This is the exciter coil wire providing spark. When I tested mine I showed 150+ volts. If you do not get a reasonable reading at this location, back up and disconnect the Black/Red wire further back toward the alternator and test here. If you got a good reading up at the CDI connector block then plug the CDI in and test for voltage output from the CDI when spinning over the engine,
You are correct, I believe, that the pulse coil is generating more than enough voltage to properly signal the CDI.
I had a no spark situation some months ago and Jerry informed me that you cannot bench test a CDI; you cannot only check input and output. I had 5 CDI's and none of them worked. I had voltage entering the CDI but none comming out. Turns out the 5 wires feeding the CDI connector block were not snapped in to the block in the correct pattern (2 were switched). I reversed their positions and rode my Spree off into the sunset.


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 10:36 am 
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Spree
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I actually read your post(s) and threads prior to posting my own. My pinouts for the CDI harness were correct so I was not so lucky. At this point I hope that the CDIs test as bad (put on a known running Spree) then at least I would have hope that the exciter coil/wiring is good and all I need is a good used CDI.

I assume the voltage is DC for the Black/red wire? The white and yellow I think are AC, for the rectifier to turn to +12V DC.

This problem solving is more difficult since I got the scooter in an unknown condition and it was very weathered, I may have had a series of issues, bad grounds (now fixed), broken wire at the CDI (now fixed) and a bad CDI or coil (both sent out to be tested on a working spree). So each repair didn't show signs of having a effect on the lack of spark.

I appreciate the extra electrical knowledge. I will do some more testing tonight. It seems that you would be able to test the CDI somehow by measuring voltage in and out to the different components (i.e. pulse generator, exciter coil, ground and coil out) if someone benchmarked the expected values from a running spree.

Thanks again for all the help and support.

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Jeremy Ferch
1985 Spree (NQ50) - Mid restoration


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 11:07 am 
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I believe that the voltage entering a CDI is AC and that the conversion to DC takes place within the CDI unit. So check exciter output ahead of the CDI as AC. I believe that you must confirm sufficient exciter coil output. [/b]


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 8:49 pm 
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Spree
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Tested exciter coil (out - Black/Red wire both at the CDI harness and at the stator) and on the AC setting it didn't register higher than 1V, on the DC setting it went between -/+ 18V. I read somewhere that the CDI, in a CDI ignition, itself steps up the voltage to like 250V and the at the coil it gets amplified by 100x. To produce about 25,000V of spark energy.

You could be right and I have a bad stator. I would be interested in what a running spree registers in those same places both AC and DC. I still am confused, since my experience in engines is on cars. That said, in a car you could run a car without either the battery or the alternator. The car would run for about 1-3 hours on a fully charged battery before it would die. A car with a bad battery will run on the alternator assuming you shut off all unnecessay electical and can keep the engine abouve about 2000 rpm, so that the alternator is producing enough energy to run the PCM and coil(s) I have been able to drive cars home with no battery in them with just keeping the revs up. I also have driven a car to and from work for about 2 weeks with no alternator, just charging at night with a trickle charger.

Since I am new to motorcycle electronics, I can say I dpo not know that this applies here (since you can kick start the spree and most cycles) but in a car you can start it by popping the clutch (which only needs a good alternator) SInce I do not have the kick start I can't confirm if the alternator is producing enough energy to light the fire. Hopefully I will get some news from the guy testing the CDI and coil, if those show no failure I will be buying the stator.

Thanks mike for the info. I think I have this problem cornered.

Based on this (which I know is not a Spree but the engine physics are similar and the coil resistances are nearly identical) http://www.cobrasales.com/docs/Diagnosing%20the%20Ignition%20System%20of%20the%20251.pdf it would seem that the AC out at nearly 1V would be perfect.

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Jeremy Ferch
1985 Spree (NQ50) - Mid restoration


Last edited by ferchja on Wed May 25, 2005 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:29 pm 
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little hint, thak an old 3/8ths drive extension and cut off the ratchet to extension half, then stick it in a drill with a 14mm socket and make sure u are cranking the correct way. i dont reccommend this for long. just to see if u have any output. i dont see why u cant use the starter for this.

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00' sa-50 slammed and stretched
89' elite sb, with a 99' af16, (SOLD)
87' spree (SOLD
87' mustang gt vert kenne bell, irs.
90' mustang notch turbo drag car
12' wrx


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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:34 pm 
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Spree
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I got those reading with the starter cranking. Going to mellow about the no spark until I hear back from Paul about the CDIs I sent him. Like I said at this point I hope they both are bad.

If someone has any specs on 2.5hp Honda or other 2-cycle CDI ignition engines then I would be interested in seeing what voltage readings you would expect during a kick/electrical start for the stator and excitor coil.

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Jeremy Ferch
1985 Spree (NQ50) - Mid restoration


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:48 pm 
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Spree
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Update:

Paul tested both CDIs and ignition coil and they both tested negative for failure. So he is sending them back for a modest testing fee and I will plug them in and test them on mine. If it sparks then I know it was the grounds, if not then the only electrical component left would be the stator.

I am on vacation in AZ and will be back this upcoming weekend, I will post the final results and lessons learned then.

Thanks for all the support.

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Jeremy Ferch
1985 Spree (NQ50) - Mid restoration


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:24 pm 
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Spree
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Put on both CDIs and coil still no spark.

Knowing the CDIs and coil, spark plug are good I decided to troubleshoot further into the wiring. All wires to CDI carry current with no resistance. Checked the Alternator with a test light, the light and charging coil produced a dim light with starter going. So that result was expected. The exciter coil (black/red wire) showed 12 volts +/- so that was good. The pulse generator which I thought was good, is now not producing any voltage even though the resistance is within spec 123.6 ohms. So am I to guess the pulse generator is shot?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!!

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Jeremy Ferch
1985 Spree (NQ50) - Mid restoration


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:15 am 
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You mentioned in an earlier post that your pulse coil was generating nearly 3 volts and now it seems to not be creating any voltage. That is kinda weird. My Spree showed pulse coil output of 0.2 - 0.35 v AC and the scooter runs fine. My exciter coil output registered 150+ v AC. If I had spare alternator and pulse coils I would lend them to you. But I cannot risk damage to the ones on my Spree. I empathize. Do not throw in the towel. It will be a glorious moment when you finally see the blue spark!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:01 pm 
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check ebay for one or paul. i know i have seen one every once in a while there.

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00' sa-50 slammed and stretched
89' elite sb, with a 99' af16, (SOLD)
87' spree (SOLD
87' mustang gt vert kenne bell, irs.
90' mustang notch turbo drag car
12' wrx


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:24 pm 
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Spree
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Posts: 187
Location: Racine, WI
Mike, that is what is so frustrating. :!: I know it registered good, and now it isn't. I am going to get another multimeter this afternoon, and retest the alternator and pulse generator and post the results. I even moved the magnet closer to the flywheel, thinking it wasn't close enough to excite the magnet and coil, but that didn't help. :x

As mentioned before those are the only 2 things left in the spark system, so I will see about trying to pick up one on eBay or with Paul if my tests show something is failing. Maybe it is the excitor coil, and the pulse generator is fine. :evil:

Thanks again for the help.....I won't give up but I may throw it....

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Jeremy Ferch
1985 Spree (NQ50) - Mid restoration


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:07 pm 
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Spree
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Location: Racine, WI
SPARK SPARK SPARK I HAVE SPARK.

It must have been there last night, but it was too bright. I checked all the voltages and everything was there. So I plugged in the spark plug, turned off the lights and turned it over, and there was a faint blue spark.

Now with the spark plug in the starter can't turn it past one compression. I am charging the battery between starting attempts. I swapped out the starter relay with a newer one (less corrosion) and it could get it maybe two times.

Any hints on getting the starter to take more of a load. I did rewire the starter wires both ground and power. I also rebuilt the starter.

Could my bearings on the crank be too worn/corroded to be able to spin freely?

Almost there....forum bring me home....

Thanks

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Jeremy Ferch
1985 Spree (NQ50) - Mid restoration


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:08 pm 
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glad to hear it. pull the plug and let it spin a while to clear it out. if that doesnt help make sure the batt is good. if not it could be the starter.

_________________
00' sa-50 slammed and stretched
89' elite sb, with a 99' af16, (SOLD)
87' spree (SOLD
87' mustang gt vert kenne bell, irs.
90' mustang notch turbo drag car
12' wrx


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