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Keeping Spree Elite Aero 50cc and Gyro Alive!
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:48 pm 
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I HAVE TAKEN THE BUTTON APART, CLEANED IT ON A BUFFER AND WITH A DREMEL WIRE BRUSH AND PUT BACK TOGETHER. I MADE SURE THE SPRING IS POSITIONED SO THE BUTTON GOES TO GROUND WHEN IT IS PUSHED IN. WHEN THE STARTER BUTTON IS PUSHED WITH BRAKE HELD IN, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO ACTION AT POINTS ON STARTER RELAY AND VOLTAGE IS 1.5V LOWER THAN READING AT BATTERY. I SUSPECT NOT ENOUGH VOLTAGE TO ACTIVATE SOLENOID IN RELAY, BUT I HAVE NO CLUE WHERE THE VOLTAGE IS BEING LOST. I'M LOOKING FOR HELP.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:44 pm 
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Spree
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Location: Racine, WI
This is a classic example of resistance on a wire that is corroded. A drop of 1.5V is nothing on a starter. THat is plenty to get the thing to spin under load. The problem is not voltage but amps, without giving a lesson on the difference, test resistance with the battery in place and hooked up and have a friend hit the start button when needed.

CAUTION You are dealing with electricity even though it is a scooter. The coil can produce enough Voltage to kill a person. Use caution and have someone who knows about electricity there. If you do not understand the instructions below, seek help.

Get a multimeter set to measure Ohms, if you need to set range get it to see 0-50+ Ohms. Take coil/spark wire off the spark plug and ground it to the jug.

Steps (assuming that the next step means success at the prior):

1) Without hitting the start button but with the brake lever pulled measure the resistance (from now on I'll refer to it as "R") from the negative battery terminal to the back of the starter plug green wire. on the wireharness side not the starter side. Should read 0 Ohms, anything above 3-4 Ohms is a bad wire that will not work.

2) Now measure the R between the + battery terminal wire (the thicker one) to where it goes into the relay. If not sure which fat wire in the relay, hit the continuity on the multimeter and check for the one that beeps. The other one is behind the relay that you have not activated yet so it should not register. Again needs to be 0 Ohms, anything above 3 Ohms will not work. (BTW a new wire will register 0 Ohms with a battery load using a small multimeter)

3) Position probes between the other wire on the relay, that was dead before and the other probe on the red wire on the starter harness on the left side like we did the ground (harness side) Now have your friend hit the start button. If again R is higher than 3 Ohms the wire is bad. or in this case the relay contact points are the high R problem. You could test that by hitting the starter again and have the probes on both sides of the relay on the red thick wires.

Obviously the one that registers the high R needs to be replaced, then start the testing again until all points read 0.

If any wire does not show continuity and/or infinite resistance then the wire is bad, no need to test any further until that is replaced.

I had the same problem, rewired the whole starter high amp lines (those would be the thicker heavier guage wires, heavier guage to handle the amp load or the starter) . My ground registered 45 Ohms, and both red wires were in the teens. Typical of old wires left outside. Most all other wires will have some degree of resistance as wires age, but they typically are dealing with less than 1 amp draw and therefore could register well over 12 Ohms before they would take amps away from the lights, relays etc. causing them not to work.

Good luck.

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Jeremy Ferch
1985 Spree (NQ50) - Mid restoration


Last edited by ferchja on Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:13 am 
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JEREMY: I AM CONFUSED. YOU SAY I NEED A MULTI-METER THAT MEASURES AMPS, BUT YOU ADVISE I SET IT ON OHMS, NOT AMPS.
YOUR EXPLANATIONS ALL ARE BASED ON RESISTANCE ALSO.

THE ACTUAL TESTS YOU DESCRIBE ARE PLAIN ENOUGH. I WILL REPORT MY FINDINGS AND THANKS.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:43 pm 
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Spree
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Location: Racine, WI
My bad! Was typing faster than I was thinking.

Typo should read Ohms I will edit it. Ohms is the unit of measure of resistance, resistance in electrical equations and/or specs is noted with an "R" (i.e R = 7 Ohms)

Thanks.

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Jeremy Ferch
1985 Spree (NQ50) - Mid restoration


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:30 pm 
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GLAD I HAVEN'T LOST MY MIND OVER VOLTS, OHMS AND AMPS!

I HAVE ONCE AGAIN TACKLED THE STARTER ISSUE AS FOLLOWS:

1. MY MM LOWEST OHM SETTING IS 200 SO I HAD TO USE THAT SETTING

2. I GOT NO READING HIGHER THAN .4 ON ANY OF THE RESISTANCE TESTS YOU DESCRIBED

3. I HOOKED UP A PAIR OF JUMPERS FROM THE BATTERY DIRECT TO THE STARTER RELAY AND THE SOLENOID CLOSED AND STARTER SPINS LIKE A WHIRLING DERVISH.

4. ONCE AGAIN, THIS LEADS ME TO THINK THAT THE 11.2 VOLTS I AM GETTING THRU THE GREEN / YELLOW BRAKE WIRES AT STARTER RELAY IS JUST NOT ENOUGH VOLTAGE TO ACTIVATE SOLENOID AND CLOSE POINTS. I CAN GUARANTEE YOU THAT A CAR WILL NOT HIT A LICK WHEN THE BATTERY DROPS ONLY .50 VOLTS, MUCH LESS 1.5V.

5. I VERIFIED THAT WHEN THE STARTER BUTTON IS PUSHED IT GOES TO GROUND WITH THE RED AND YELLOW WIRE AT STARTER RELAY. HOWEVER, MY DIGITAL MM IS AN EL CHEAPO FROM HARBOR FREIGHT TOOLS AND CONTINUITY TESTING IS NOT IT'S STRONG POINT (NO AUDIBLE BEEP). STILL SOME WORK TO DO HERE TO VERIFY I AM MAKING GOOD GROUND TO CLOSE THE SOLENOID POINTS.

ALSO, THE SPREE I AM WORKING ON IS AN 86 MODEL IN PRISTINE CONDITION. HAD ONLY 600 MILES ON IT WHEN I BOUGHT IT 4 OR 5 YEARS AGO. STILL ONLY HAS 1400 TOTAL MILES.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:52 pm 
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run a wire off the + on the batt and probe the large red/white wire on the relay. if starter spins it sounds to me like the relay.

_________________
00' sa-50 slammed and stretched
89' elite sb, with a 99' af16, (SOLD)
87' spree (SOLD
87' mustang gt vert kenne bell, irs.
90' mustang notch turbo drag car
12' wrx


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:25 pm 
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Spree
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Location: Racine, WI
I agree with vette either your relay is bad or you are grounding it with the starter button is not connecting. If all wires with 12 volts all showed no resistance then the relay is the only thing in the equations, if you have bench tested the starter.

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Jeremy Ferch
1985 Spree (NQ50) - Mid restoration


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:29 pm 
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CB900F
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right. this happened to my spree. it would work if i squeezed the terminels together, but would not do it under its own power. a borrowed relay worked fine but i ended up bypassing it (since the only purpose is really so the brake has to be engaged).

_________________
00' sa-50 slammed and stretched
89' elite sb, with a 99' af16, (SOLD)
87' spree (SOLD
87' mustang gt vert kenne bell, irs.
90' mustang notch turbo drag car
12' wrx


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:46 pm 
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Spree
Spree

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Posts: 187
Location: Racine, WI
I also believe that it also doesn't allow the starter to engage when engine is running. I have hit the starter button on accident and it doesn't try to engage when the engine is running. I could be wrong or did not here it.

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Jeremy Ferch
1985 Spree (NQ50) - Mid restoration


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:24 am 
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no, it will engage. been there. the brake still has to be hit tho.

_________________
00' sa-50 slammed and stretched
89' elite sb, with a 99' af16, (SOLD)
87' spree (SOLD
87' mustang gt vert kenne bell, irs.
90' mustang notch turbo drag car
12' wrx


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:12 am 
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Spree
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Location: Racine, WI
Your right, now that I think about it, the brake was not engaged. Good Call Vette!

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Jeremy Ferch
1985 Spree (NQ50) - Mid restoration


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:19 pm 
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Received my new brushes a few days ago and they were the wrong ones, the guy says he will send correct ones but I'm starting to wonder if they exist. Dammit!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:37 pm 
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I HAVE MADE SERIOUS PROGRESS AND WILL REPORT MORE FULLY IN NEXT FEW DAYS.

AT STARTER RELAY:

I DECIDED TO MAKE SOME JUMPERS TO JUMP AROUND THE GREEN/YELLOW WIRES FROM BRAKES . I WAS GOING TO JUMP DIRECT TO THE BATTERY BELOW THE 7A FUSE ON SMALL RED WIRE COMING FROM POSTIVE POLE ON BATTERY . THIS JUMPER WOULD GIVE A FULL 12.6 V AT THE STARTER RELAY AND DETERMINE IF LOW (11.2V) VOLTAGE IS REASON RELAY POINTS WILL NOT CLOSE AT ACTIVATE STARTER.
THE OTHER JUMPER WOULD BE TO BYPASS THE RED/YELLOW WIRE FROM THE STARTER BUTTON TO DETERMINE IF A BAD GROUND IS THE PROBLEM.
WHILE IN THE PROCESS OF MAKING THE JUMPERS , I NOTICED THAT NONE OF THE MALE SPADE CONNECTORS I PUT INTO THE RELAY CONNECTION HARNESS SEEMED TO FIT VERY WELL. I USED A SMALL JEWELERS' SCREWDRIVER TO CLOSE THEM TIGHTER INSIDE THE CONNECTOR , THEN PLUGGED THE RELAY BACK IN, TURNED ON KEY, PULLED IN BRAKE, PUSHED STARTER BUTTON AND ------- THE * STARTER SPUN LIKE A WHIRLING DERVISH FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE I HAVE HAD THE BIKE IN THREE YEARS!!!!!!!!!!

I WILL PUT THE WHOLE THING BACK TOGETHER IN THE NEXT DAY OR SO AND LET EVERYONE KNOW IF I HAVE SOLVED THE PROBLEM. I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT MY PROBLEM WOULD NOT BE COMMON TO LOTS OF SPREE'S.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:15 am 
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Spree
Spree

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 1973 9:24 am
Posts: 187
Location: Racine, WI
Premptive congrats! My next suggestion was to take a test light and probe the wires to see then you had a connection. That would have started you to question the connections, cause unlike the multimeter you are not making a connection across a common wire.

Spray the harness with contact cleaner, after you adjust the female ends, then spray it with dielectric grease. This will keep the connection corrosion free and keep you from having to clean it up.

Let us know.

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Jeremy Ferch
1985 Spree (NQ50) - Mid restoration


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:25 pm 
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TO ALL WHO HAVE HELPED:

I HAVE CONQUERED THE STARTER ISSUE, SPREE IS COMPLETELY REASSEMBLED AND STARTS THE INSTANT I HIT THE STARTER BUTTON WITH BRAKE LEVER IN. CULPRIT WAS IN FACT A LOOSE CONNECTION OF THE STARTER RELAY INTO THE HARNESS, BUT I WAS A LONG TIME GETTING THERE. AMAZING HOW TIGHTLY THE RELAY FIT INTO HOUSING BUT WAS NOT MAKING GOOD CONTACT. LIKE MOST TROUBLE SHOOTING, IT'S A PROCESS OF ELIMINATION UNTIL YOU FIND THE CULPRIT.

NOW I THINK I KNOW WHERE ANOTHER DEAD SPREE IS LIVING AND I'M GOING TO SEE IF I CAN GET IT!!!!

DS


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