Tried new 0-rings: stillno seal or bystarter broken?

kwosha · Post by **kwosha** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:33 pm

I got some new o-rings from home depo...several thicknesses... that fit very well into the slot where the seal is supposed to be on my bystarter. Unfortunately, it still won't start with the bystarter in. When I do the thumb-plug trick, it starts on the first kick. So either I'm STILL not getting a seal (unlikely) or......

I guess my bystarter must be faulty right? Is there any way to tell? I can push the pin and tube around it up (sort of spring loaded) and then when i let go the pin and tube elongate back. Is this an indication of the bystarter being faulty? Is there any way to take apart a bystarter to fix or no?

Thanks
Kevin

ferchja · Post by **ferchja** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:58 pm

You are right that it sounds like the bystarter is not closing off the enriching circuit.

Try installing the bystarter and letting it sit for about 1-2 hours. Then try to start it, if that fails, and by pulling the bystarter and putting your thumb over the hole starts it, then you have a faulty seal on the bystarter.

THe bystarter starts in a retracted position when it is cold or engine is off for an hour or two. So it is not sealing off the extra gas from getting into the intake. Your thumb is sealing this off and therefore eliminating the choking feature. With the engine running the bystarter slowly extends into the bowl closing off the extra fuel (similar to your thumb) as the engine warms up. If from a cold start the engine doesn't start, then you have air getting past the bystarter not allowing the extra fuel into the intake or the bystarter is stuck in the fully extended position causing the extra gas from getting to the intake to start it from a cold condition. If from a hot start it doesn't start then you have a rich condition where fuel is getting into the intake when it isn't needed (i.e. the bystarter is not extended far enough to close off the gas - bad bystarter). IF it starts and runs rough or has a laggy throttle you have a slight vacuum leak around the bystarter and/or the bystarter is not sealing properly.

After all those words, I would try to find a used bystarter off a working spree ($15-20 on ebay) it will save you the headache. I actually road mine for like 20-30 miles without a bystarter. I just had a can of starter fluid handy for cold starts and plugged the bystarter hole with foam and tape. That is with 70-80 degree weather, any colder air and it would take a little more starter fluid over a longer period to get it warm enough to idle.

kwosha · Post by **kwosha** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:39 am

thanks for the advice Jeremy.

are you saying that a spree bystarter may fit ??

ferchja · Post by **ferchja** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:48 am

I would not know that, you will have to wait for someone with more cross part experience then I.

vette76 · Post by **vette76** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:28 pm

what kind of bike do u have? does the bystarter screw in or have the clip with 2 screws? the spree/elite has a clip. some aeros screw in.

kwosha · Post by **kwosha** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:53 pm

it's a Honda Aero 50 1983. (NB50M i'm assuming)

the bystarter screws in.

here are some pictures of it. keep in mind these pictures were taken with the old o-ring in place (before I replaced it). The new 0-ring didn't get it started, but the thumb plug trick did.

Thanks
Kevin

vette76 · Post by **vette76** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:11 pm

spree bystarter will not fit. u need to find an aero. good luck.

Post by **noiseguy** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:12 pm

D/l the manual for this bike. Then look at the directions for testing the bystarter, posted in tech docs and maybe in the manual. That is not a Spree bystarter. You may need to run down a complete carb, or go aftermarket, as yours is pretty unusual. That's not a Spree bystarter, BTW.

kwosha · Post by **kwosha** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:28 pm

Jeremy,
What does letting it sit for 2 hours after intalling do? Does it give the carb time to eqalize pressure or something like that?

ferchja · Post by **ferchja** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:09 am

The bystarter needs to retract and the engine cool for a true cold start test. With a warm engine and a bystarter retracted you may get a false read on a rich condition. The idea is you are troubleshooting, not trying to develop a daily startup routine. The goal is to determine what is wrong. The bystarter takes about 20-30 minutes to fully retract, about 5-10 minutes to extend. Waiting the extra hour or two lets the engine reach its surrounding temperature so you can isolate the problem.

Obviously when you fix it you can start it every 5 seconds if you choose. I know I did when I got mine to fire.

Try the no bystarter temp fix. Seal off the fuel and air from the intake with some foam and tape. get a can of starter fluid hit the air filter with about 1 second of starter fluid, crank the throttle to full open and start it. You may have to play with the throttle to keep it going while the engine warms, but once warm the engine should run flawlessly, if you taped and segregated the bystarter port off.

The spree/areo/etc. only has a bystarter so that sally and her mother would not have to try to figure out how to manually prime or choke the engine on cold starts. Honda came up with this electrically (resistant)timed auto choke to allow grandma to start the Spree in cold/hot etc.

Hope that helps.

kwosha · Post by **kwosha** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:03 am

thanks a lot... what you said, i've done it now and basically have determined that my bystarter is not fully retracting. it retracts a couple of mm (maybe 1-2mm max) at most but that's it and I think this isn't enough to open the fuel enrichment circuit.

what i did was take off the pin and the sheath (that stick down into the carb from the bystarter) then inserted the bystarter so that bascially all the bystarter was doing was sealing the hole into the carb. the engine started right away, cold. then, to double check, i replaced the pin and sheath to the bystareter, re-installed, and nothing, it wouldn't start cold. so basically i know i'm getting a good seal, but the bystarter pin and sheath are not retracting fully when cooled.

i found the part (new bystarter) on bikebandit.com so went ahead and ordered it....just hoping i don't get an email saying it's out of stock or discontinued.

i've looked around and tried to figure out if it's possible to convert to a manual choke....very frustrating knowing that all of my problems here depend on some waxy stuff expanding and contracting properly!!!! anybody every tried to convert it? i know i could just seal up the hole but then it'd be running too rich when warm.

fingers crossed,
kev

ferchja · Post by **ferchja** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:35 am

It is well known that the bystarters are a weak link on these carbs. I would bet 90% of the issues on starting with good spark are related to the bystarter. The other 10% is Jason's pet peeve of people thinking they have cleaned the carb when they haven't cleaned every hole.

Good luck let us know how it goes.