Honda Spree and Elite 50 Forums

what you think

lets just say it'll do more damage than good. just no reason for that much octane imo.

yes there is

mopedman wrote:yes there is

what do you have to back that up? the spree has a fairly low compression engine and runs better on lower octane gas. Using higher octane only stresses the engine and promotes detonation and backfire, since the gas can't be combusted efficiently.

Read this I hope it helps.
OCTANE: WHAT IT IS FOR, AND THE MYTHS SURROUNDING IT By jacobyb

"I only use super/premium/performance/ high octane fuel in my Civic DX. I can feel the power..."

This is probably one of the biggest misconceptions in the automotive world, as we know it. Yet, I hear this all the time. For example a close friend of mine who drives a 1996 Pontiac Bonneville tells me that he only uses Chevron 92 octane fuel because "It performs so much better, and my fuel economy is way higher." This opinion or misconception is not an isolated view to the "gear-heads" that are or think they are car savvy. And the oil companies don't help the matter by calling their high-octane fuels "Performance" or "Premium," or whatever they choose. Here is why.

The first thing we have to know is obviously, what is octane and why does it matter? Octane can be simply defined in one sentence: Octane is a rating of a fuels resistance to ignite (evaporative qualities). WAIT A MINUTE! Resistance? That's right, resistance. To put it simply, the higher the octane, the harder it is to get to ignite. Higher-octane fuel resists burning. Lower-octane fuel does not. Lower-octane fuel is actually more explosive, move volatile, and creates a much bigger explosion then its higher-octane counter-part.

When you go to the pump to fill your car, you generally have three options. Regular, mid-grade, and super. You also see that there is a rating system. It is a sticker posted to the pump next to the octane rating of the fuel that you choose. It generally says something like this. Regular for example: 87 Octane minimum, measured by using the (R+M)/2 rating. What does this mean? The R in the equation stands for Research Octane Rating, known as RON. This is a test that tries to simulate variables that your car would go through on a given day. It is a test using a single cylinder, four-stroke engine that is idling at 600rpm. The fuel temperature going into the engine is not controlled. It is allowed to vary and fluctuate with the temperature of the conditions at the time. The intake air temperature is varied with barometric pressure to simulate the air being sucked into the car from the outside. The timing is set at 13° BTDC. This is done to covert everything to a SAE standard day, which is 60° F, 0% Humidity, and 29.92 inches barometric pressure.

The M in the equation stands for Motor Octane Rating, known as MON. When testing MON, the fuel is heated to 300° F and the intake air is heated to 100° F. The test engine is a single cylinder 4-cycle engine that is run at 900 rpm. Ignition timing is varied with compression ratio. Engine load is varied during test. If you are deciding what fuel to use on a high-compression, high-performance engine, this is the test you would want to use. The RON will always be higher than the MON.

So what does this all mean when you go to the pump? It means that to extract the most from the car that you are driving, you have to use the appropriate octane fuel or the car is not going to perform up to its potential. Either the fuel will burn too slowly, and in many cases not burn completely, or it will burn too fast and out of control. The latter is called Detonation. Normal combustion will take place at a pretty steady rate (for a given rpm and load), when a large amount of the charge burns extremely fast and uncontrollably, it is know as detonation. Detonation can destroy an engine in a matter of seconds. There are a few causes of detonation. Usually it is attributed to too much heat, but that is only part of the problem. Pressure and advanced ignition timing both play a role in it too. Usually when detonation takes place, the detonation occurs on the intake side of the chamber, which is the coolest side of the chamber. This happens because detonation did not occur until the pressure got excessive, which was after the spark. By the time that happened, the charge near the exhaust valve has already been burned. Most of the time, detonation will occur after normal combustion has started. Apart from destroying pistons and spark plugs, light detonation can cause all sorts of other problems, like fatiguing cranks and rods quickly and pounding bearings to death, so avoid detonation at all costs.

Another problem is Pre-ignition (for cars using octane that is too low). When the charge lights off before the spark, it's called pre-ignition. This can happen with or without detonation, but usually will cause detonation in a high performance engine. Hot spots in the combustion chamber are the usual cause of pre-ignition. This is very unpredictable and can lead to detonation, because it will act just like too much ignition timing, but it won't be controllable.

So this is what happens in cars that use octane ratings that are too low, but what about vise-versa? Generally, the problem with using an octane rating that is too high for your car causes problems that, while not generally as severe as going too low, are still detrimental to the performance and efficiency of your engine. One of the most common problems is lost power. Yes, you read that right, if you use an octane of fuel that is too high for your car, you will lose power. This goes for all the stock or lightly modded Civics out there. Remember when we discussed that octane measures the fuels resistance to burn? Well, this is where that really comes into play in a low compression engine, such as the engines found in 90% of all streetcars. As the fuel is injected into the combustion chamber and the compression stroke begins, cylinder pressure is created. This is vital to combustion as cylinder pressure is what translates into power. When that pressure is not high enough (low-compression), the fuel only partially ignites. This means that there is leftover fuel that has to be expelled through the exhaust valves and expelled through the exhaust. This is bad for several reasons. The first is that this un-burnt fuel leaves deposits and grime all over the cylinder and valves. This robs you of power, fuel economy, and wears engine components pre-maturely. There is also a vital part of any streetcar, the emissions control devices. The catalyst for example often is destroyed by being clogged with carbon and un-burnt fuel resulting from using too high-octane. This results in costly repairs, and guess what? The loss of power and lower fuel economy. Not to mention, you had to pay $.20 more per gallon just to lower your cars potential and performance. So you guys that think that adding 100 octane race gas to your Civic Ex at the track is going to improve your times, you are running in the wrong direction unless you have some kind of forced induction such as Nitrous, Turbo, or Super Chargers.

So the next question people ask is, "Why then do high-power, ultra-fast cars use high octane fuel?" Well the answer is simple. Higher-octane fuel contains more POTENTIAL energy but requires the higher heat generated by higher compression ratio engines to properly condition the fuel to RELEASE that higher potential energy. Here is the general rule for choosing octane if you have a question of what it should be. If your compression is 9.5:1 or lower, 87 octane should be plenty. As your compression rises, so should the octane that you choose.

Remember that there are variables to everything in life and this is no exception. If you have dramatically advanced ignition timing for example, high-octane may be needed. But for the vast majority of the people on the street, for optimal performance in your streetcar, use the octane best suited for your car, and remember, high-octane does not mean more power!

Hey Dewey, we are talking about "2 stroke" engines! so your last thread means nothing...

yeah but good pointers

When you're compressing gas, 2 vs 4 stroke makes no difference. They both work the same.

Heat is the major issue, though, and the most meaningful difference b/t air cooled bikes and water-cooled bikes/cars. Air cooled bikes will run hotter on regular than premium. This will help them run faster/more efficiently. I prefer to run premium and let them run colder. I usually find that this also helps performance even on low-compression engines, if they are aircooled. Water cooled engines, however, run at a more consistant temp, thus premium only makes sense for high compression/forced induction engines. This is what the article is talking about.

i agree with dewey & noiseguy.

If you were to run 110 octane fuel in a spree, it would prolly not run, because of the small spark & heat generated.

And yes, weather its 2 or 4 stroke it doesnt matter, gas acts the same way in either engine.

ya well it go's faster with 110

maddog wrote:Hey Dewey, we are talking about "2 stroke" engines! so your last thread means nothing...

the same principal applies.

mopedman wrote:ya well it go's faster with 110

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

where u get tha icons burnt?lol

2 or 4 stroke doesnt matter compression ratio does. A low comp. engine will make MORE power on LOW octane fuel that it will on high octane. Somebody should do a test. Take an unmodified spree and make five timed runs from a standing start for like 100 yards. then drain the tank and do 5 more with high octane gas and see if there's a difference. Then we'll know who's right. By the way what is the comp. ratio of a spree engine?

6.8:1 or 7.2:1 depending on year (from the owner's manual.)

No need to test, members here have reported that high test fuel will indeed slow down a stock Spree.